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Q: e-fix and nemotode fix, safe for babies
Posted By:

thestef

I already posted this question but the person who answered just read off the bag. I was wondering if it was safe to feed little geckos the medicine for entomebas and nemotodes, they show no signs of it, but I thought just to be safe I'd give all my older geckos the medicine. I'm just worried the little ones are too tiny and it could hurt them.
thanks, thestef

Points: 100
Topics: General Health , Medications
Tags: EFix, Feeding, Gecko, Medication, Nematode, Parasites, Supplements
Species: Lizards > Geckos > Correlophus ciliatus
Administrative: Show/Hide

Member Comment 2/4/2010 11:00:23 AM

TVR
Fed all mine last year with no problems.
 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 11:34:49 AM

WhiteHillReptile
why would you want to treat if you have no reason or proof that they have an issue?  
 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 11:57:36 AM

Sparkle
If you over-medicate them, you'll build med-resistant germs.  Personally I wouldn't do it if they're not sick.  That's like you taking antibiotics when you don't feel sick, just on the off chance you may have something...
 
Author Comment 2/4/2010 11:57:52 AM

thestef
idk my boyfriend just likes to be sure. It's kind of like a yearly thing we were going to do, just to be on the safe side.
 
Author Comment 2/4/2010 12:02:17 PM

thestef
that makes sense.. hmm. perhaps we will reconsider it then. I don't want it not working if they ever actually need it.
 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 2:14:57 PM

Katie M
I don't see any reason NOT to do yearly fixes - as the food is supposed to be safe.  If they're eating insects of any kind, especially from a petstore, I would think it would be wise to treat them profolactically every once in a while
 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 2:33:52 PM

Krestie Kate
The meds suggest on the bag that you do it once a year atleast to all of your animals so why not fallow the directions?
 
Author Comment 2/4/2010 2:54:19 PM

thestef
will you shush!! IM ASKING if  IT'S ALRIGHT FOR BABIES!!! I can read a bag. I've read the bag. I'm asking others opinions. I like to know more then what a product says, because one paragraph isn't enough to ensure that it wont hurt your animal.
 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 3:25:53 PM

Krestie Kate
Maybe if you want more opinions you should have asked on the crested gecko site insted of asking snake people? The bag says it's safe for ALL rhacs. What if you don't treat one of your babies and its infected then what? Then you'll have to medicate everything again in turn causeing what kristen said and they will build up a resistance. If it says to treat once a year then treat EVERYONE once a year. They won't build up an immunity to just one dose once a year.
 
Author Comment 2/4/2010 3:40:37 PM

thestef

this is a reptile site!!! tons of people have geckos? other people have opinions, now i just have to think about it! WHY are you getting so mad she said to not medicate if they weren't sick. and other people said to medicate, now i have to think about it. all of them are eating, and healthy looking, they sleep, they jump. now I just need to consider the opinionsss.

 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 3:46:17 PM

WhiteHillReptile
i feel the same way about this as i do about over medding people.  you know in holland there is hardly such a thing as MRSA?  whereas everywhere else in the world it runs through hospitals to the point that they make you sign a release for it....why is that?  because they dont over treat, they dont over medicate, and they dont give meds to people/animals that dont need it.  you say if its not going to hurt them, then why not.  but if its not going to help, then why should you do it either?  you cause undue stress to an animal that is living in a stress bound environment.  there is a certain amount of parasites and bacteria in an animals gut that can be considered "normal".  their own systems keep them in check, its when husbandry in general goes down hill, in otherwords, when they stress out things go from normal to worse.  why worry about it?  do they need it?  no.  have they lived and reproduced for millions of years with parasites being the norm.  yes.  why take the chance of a medication only killing a portion of the parasites leaving the resistant to populate that harder to treat when a light bulb goes out when you are away for the weekend, causes them to get a little cold and stress letting whatever is going on get worse.

in the end its your decision, but i would suggest leaving well enough alone.

FWIW
Tre'
 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 3:56:31 PM

Krestie Kate

Your animals could still have it and just don't show signs of being sick thats why it's suggested on the bag by Allen Rephasy to medicate atleast once a year. Something like stress could cause them to get sick and if one gets sick you need to medicate them all because it can spread like wildfire. I lost 3 geckos to it last year because I didn't catch the symptems earlie enough. I thought I could skip my babies sense they wern't breeding. Ask zack we lost nacho,pinto and the original nova because of my carelessness. I don't want to see you loose any of your aniamls because you all of a sudden wanna disregaurd everything I say. I know you and joe love your animals and I strongly urge that you fallow the directions and medicate your animals especialy after they just came from a show. I'm most worryed about the one you got off the guy that had no clue what he was doing that aniamal could have came into contact with anything. You bought him from an importer. Any aniamal that he's imported could have had a nematoad and transfered it to your crestie. It could be laying dorment until it find a weakness in the animals immune system and then attack. I'm not just blowing smoke i've spend years reading and researching with my own experiances to back it up. I just don't wanna see you guys go threw the same.

 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 3:57:42 PM

TVR
It is perfectly fine.  There are many breeders that treat with the E-fix yearly to be safe including me.  it's a great product that can help keep your colony from getting entamoeba invadens, something you really dont want to have to deal with.
 
Author Comment 2/4/2010 4:10:12 PM

thestef
okay, you just had to explain your opinion further, im not disregaurding it, I just needed more information. And to other people thank you for helping out :) I'm probably going to just give it to them. I'll just have to make sure the babies actually eat it. I'm also worried about the unknown one because the person didn't even know what they fed them!! ugh, fucking people are so wierd. They just buy the reptile with no idea what to feed it!! THAT is crazy. anywho. I will show joe everyones comments and we'll figure out what to do from there. I just don't want to have to force feed the babies, In a few places i've read that it could choke them :/ so i might just have to let them lick a toothpick?? or my finger? or a steak haha.
 
Member Comment 2/4/2010 4:21:28 PM

Krestie Kate
Take the cotten off of a qtip and hand feed it to them that way or put it on there nose. I didn't mean force feed it down there throuts.
 
Author Comment 2/4/2010 4:24:48 PM

thestef
ohhhh, well that sounds better. the word "FORCE" just is kind of offputting.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 7:10:40 AM

BuddyB
I would not treat for any type of parasite unless a herp vet has recommended that you do so.
When you give an anti- parastic drug you are giving your animal poison.
We hope the poison will kill the parasite and leave the host unharmed.
I have an animal in my collection that was overdosed on a de worming med from her previous owner.
So ....sure feel free to poison your animals beacuse yearly becasue the "label" tells you it is okay. Lets remember this product is on the market to make money.


Buddy B
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 8:31:24 AM

LateNightGeckos
    I'm actually planning on doing the samething and feeding the med diets to the geckos, incuding the young ones.  Several breeders do it before a breeding season as a preventative measure, since breeding can be very stressful for them.  Some cresteds do carry entamoeba in their system without being affect, like most other reptiles, but when stresses of the breeding season come (or other stresses) they can get a weakened immune system and be unable to keep it at bay.  Once they do show those symptoms, it may very well be too late.   Using these diets can very much save your collection.

    Plus, it is also advised to use the fix diets whenever you have a new addition, as even the best breeders can unknowingly expose their rhacs to these threats (like when they go to an expo).  And you know what, people do (or are supposed) use certain types of preventatives for similar things in their other pets.  Heart worm pills for dogs are a "poison" medication commonly used to prevent certain worms and parasites from getting established in their systems.  It's not like you're going to wait for the dog to actually get heartworm and suffer through the stress and vet costs (and no guarantee the dog will live) before thinking "oh, I should have gave him the pills to begin with". 

    I mean, why wait until your gecko is sick before treating it.  Once sick, there's no guarantee that it would actually survive, no matter how early you catch it.  And then you may wind up spending all this money on vet bills, which would cost more since it's "exotic", and you still have a chance of osing the gecko.  Plus, if they do survive being sick, they'll never be as healthy as they were and they may have a greater chance (compaired to one that didn't get sick) of getting it again.

    Ask the same exact question, worded the same exact way, on any rhac forum and most everyone will respond with a "yes treat your geckos."
    I know you hate hearing about following the label, but make sure you definately follow the label when it comes to portions and mixing the diet.  You want to make sure that they are getting the right portion as too much can be harmful and too little won't do a thing.  If you really do have any questions or issues with with what is said on the label, why not talk to the maker himself, why not ask Allen Repashy whatever questions you have about his product as he would be the best person to ask.  Plus, if he feels that what you ask is important enough and may be an issue with other people, he may be inclined to change the wording of the label to better explain that issue.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 9:11:37 AM

BuddyB
LateNightGeckos

Please read my first sentence.
Yes...my dogs take heartworm pills, but they are under vet supervision and need a prescription for th meds.
That is quite different than buying a product from a reptile store, and adminstering a drug indiscriminately.

READ THE LABEL on both of these products.........This inclusion ratio has been carefully calculated and used successfully for 6 years, but you must use it at your own risk, and should consult a Veternarian before using this product............


If you are following strict qaurantine protocols for new animal( isloate for 90 days, vet exam includiing a fecal)  you should not need to do use this.
Most of this crap is passed through contaiminated fecal matter....so wash your hands between animals, keep your cages clean, do swap food or water bowls.

Buddy B
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 9:13:01 AM

BuddyB
EDIT****** should read DO NOT swap food or water bowls.

Buddy B
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 9:30:33 AM

LateNightGeckos
With the heart worm pills, it is not necessary to have a prescription and vet supervision to purchase and use heartworm pills.  I can actually go to a major petstore or pet supply website, and purchase heartworm meds without ever bringing my dogs to the vet, or even having dogs to begin with.  Plus, even if you have vet "supervision" there's no way for them to really stop you frm taking a months worth of Heart worm meds, and feed it to the pups in one sitting. 
Even when following strict quarantine protocols, who's to say that a seemingly healthy gecko doesn't have entamoeba?  Getting a negative fecal test can be wrong as not all the time does it detect all the "bad" things inside the animal (especially those things that are microscopic).  Then after passing all the tests, and looking healthy after the 90 day quarantine, you put the gecko within the same room as the rest of the collection and still winds up infecting the other geckos.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 10:24:20 AM

BuddyB

This is a fact.....you are not following the instructions of this product if you do not consult a herp vet before use.  Why wouldn't you want to follow ALL the directions for this product????? 
An animal with entamoebas will not survive 90 days untreated. Some other things ...yes . You either have them or you don't, they do not just appear. 
In 20 years of keeping reptiles I have never, ever had an animal that was properly screened by a vet and quarantined for 90 days show up with a problem.
Fecals can and do find things microscopic ( that is how fecals are checked...you should know this..or you have never had a fecal done), even the really nasty stuff like paramyxo, and crypto.
Which things can happen inside a reptiles body on a "microscopic" level to make entamoebas or nematodes suddenly appear??? Nothing.

Buddy B

 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 11:03:16 AM

LateNightGeckos
I have had fecals done adn never had an issue, but people I know have had fecals come up negative but a later autopsy and further test proved positive (when it was too late). 

And I did not state that entamoebas just "suddenly appear", but that it won't always affect them right away.  The reason why breeders give the fix diets before a breeding season is that sometimes the entamoebas can lie dormant or subdued by a healthy immune system, and won't "flare up" until the geckos are stressed and their immune system weakened. 

And the nematode fix is for something that can seem like it "suddenly appears", especially if you have a natural viv or give them crickets froma second rate cricket breeder.  Plants, soil and several other things you place inside a viv can in turn contain eggs or other items that benefit the transfer of parasitic worms.  No matter how hard you clean and "disinfect" something, there's no guarantee that 100% of harmful sustances have been removed. 
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 11:03:57 AM

LateNightGeckos
I am not saying that you shouldn't consult a vet, go right ahead if you feel the need.  I'm just saying that the gecko doesn't have to be sick to treat it.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 12:23:34 PM

WhiteHillReptile
"I'm just saying that the gecko doesn't have to be sick to treat it. "

WHAT!?

this still just boggles my mind.

why on earth are we treating for things that dont exist and with proper husbandry wouldnt be an issue anyway.

craziness!
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 1:32:41 PM

LateNightGeckos
So your basically saying that I should wait for my gecko to get sick, be at death's door and when it's too late to do anything, before doing any sort of treatment. I'm sorry, but if there is a way to prevent something that can potentially kill my babes, kill it before it kills/weakens them, than I'll take it. "why on earth are we treating for things that dont exist and with proper husbandry wouldnt be an issue anyway." These things do exist, and can infect your collection no matter how perfect your husbandry is. Good husbandry can actually makes it harder for the illness to show itself, as the geckos are robust and immune systems functioning properly, does always prevent a gecko from getting sick in the first place (though it does prevent/slow spreading of illnesses). These things can lie dormant and unnoticed in the system, and hit when the gecko's immune system has been compromised due to stress or other factors. Even with proper husbandry and care, any animal can get sick. Wouldn't it be better to prevent that from happening than waiting until after they get sick? Often times when they do get sick, once symptoms are noticeable (animal are very good at hiding being sick) it may very well be too late.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 1:40:32 PM

LateNightGeckos
Besides, preventing illness IS part of proper husbandry
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 2:04:21 PM

WhiteHillReptile
you are treating on a yearly basis for something that can infect and kill in less than 90 days?  whats the point?  i mean if it helps you sleep at night go ahead, but what are you really accomplishing?

bottom line if your husbandry and quarantine procedures are off then it doesnt matter what you shove down their throat, you are going to have issues.

you can treat the symptoms until the day you die and be in a constant state of catch up, but if you treat the source of the symptoms the problems magically go away.

 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 2:06:48 PM

WhiteHillReptile
but you arent talking about preventing anything. 
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 2:25:13 PM

Krestie Kate
I got an outbreak and lost 3 of my juvies within 5 days. If I would have treated them like I was soposed to they would have never gotten sick and died. Crested geckos are diffrent. This isn't just some diet  Allen made up to make money. Like it was stated before check any crested gecko site and they will all tell you the same thing. Please treat your animals. Stef if you wanna go to the enclosure and have fecals done fine. I'll go with you. All Marks gonna tell you is that crested gecko diet is horrible for cresteds and you really should be feeding them babyfood. Also everyone will have there own opinions on the matter. It's up to you to decide whats best for your animals.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 2:41:25 PM

WhiteHillReptile
why did you have the outbreak?
 
Author Comment 2/5/2010 2:42:57 PM

thestef
right then... how about? I just treat them this once, considering they are all pretty much new. They are all in seperate enclosures and I do wash my hands a LOTTT esp when I hold one of my geckos. I think that I will just trea them this once, being very careful with the measurments and such.. Then whenever I have a new addition I will strictly quarentine it and also treat it. That way I will know all of my geckos have been treated at least once and are not carrying either of these things.  I am a bit worried about a recent gecko that I got, one of the babies, as the person selling it had NO IDEA wtf they were doing. They had bought it from someone in new york, when I asked what they were feeding them they said... idk, idiots. Also another one of my geckos, one of the bigger ones hasn't been eating much at all, this could be due to the cold fricken weather, I can only keep my house so warm.. Anywho, yeah I think I'll treat them all once, and then I know they don't have it..
Thanks for everyones advice.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 2:50:22 PM

Krestie Kate
These aniamls were just shipped to me and had been highly stressed. They got stuck within UPS for two days. They were shipped from a highly reputible breeder. The attack was laying dorment (like studies have shown) The animals were stressed and had a weakened immune system and the emeba took controle while they had a chance to. I also Lost one because I thought it was unessasary to treat babies if I hatched them out myself. I moved him to a larger enclosure because he was getting bigger. Next day he was laying on the cage floor with sunken eyes and runny poo. I began to treat him but because he wouldn't eat I lost him too. Why do you think it's so unessasary? Why do you think your the crested gecko know it all? This isn't a matter of quarentineing properly or haveing fecals done. It's just something that the animals carrys and it should be taken care of once a year who are you to tell Stef she should jepradize her animals health because you don't think it's nessasary. Allen Rephasy thought it was nessasary enough to release this product to the public so people could treat there animals too so I feel it's nessasary enough to treat your animals atleast once a year to help prevent a breakout.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 2:54:54 PM

Krestie Kate

If you treat them now you'll know if there carrying it that they will no longer have it but they can still be prone to getting it again.  This isn't a prevenitive treatment. You may have to treat multipul times in the year if your geckos show any signs like rapid weight loss,sunken eyes,runny poo and loss of there back legs. They can get emebas from anything. Sticks from outside that wern't cooked right, you could bring something home from a reptile show, live planted tanks.. and the list grows. I'm glad you are going to treat them now.

 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 2:56:24 PM

BuddyB
So, you took these sick  animals to a vet and the vet said to feed them medicated food? 
Or did you just come to your own conclusions about what was wrong with your geckos?
It sounds to me  like you brought in some sick animals and passed the illness onto your healthy animals.
It sounds to me like Stef may be jeopordizing her whole collection by not practicing prper husbandry procedures.

Buddy B
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 3:04:33 PM

WhiteHillReptile
im not the crested gecko know it all nor have i ever claimed to be, but i do have more than my fair share of experience.  

im guessing that since you say hes a reputable breeder he follows the same protocol you are suggesting here.  and if these caused an issue with the rest of your collection thin this is a matter of quarantining properly.  

you are right, this is just something that animals carry and with proper husbandry it never has a chance to get ahead.  

and im not doubting allen rephasy, he has more experience than i could dream of, but why is he in need of a the product in an otherwise healthy population of CB geckos?
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 3:07:06 PM

Krestie Kate
I've seen stefs setups shes practicing proper husbandry. I called my vet she said it was fine. I've been keeping crested for years, The first time I medicated I went to the vet. NOw my current vet also says it's fine to do it on my own. The aniamls that were shipped to me wern't sick before they were shipped to me. They got sick when there immune systems when down froms tress. They died before I could get them to the vet the next morning. As for the one animal that was sick. I medicated all of my others once I relized he was sick and lost no other animals. Once again I ask what makes you an expert on crested geckos? How long have you kept them and studied there illnesses? How many scientific studies have you read on how emebas effect there bodys and operate?
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 3:11:59 PM

Krestie Kate

It's something the aniamls just get like worms and fleas with dogs. It can't be prevented but it can be treated. Allens had outbreaks it just happens. Thats why he made the product. None of the rest of my aniamals got sick from the two he shipped to me. One year later I had an outbreak when I stressed an animal by moveing it to a larger enclosure. Lost that animal but didn't loose any others because I treated my aniamls as soon as symtems accoured in that one. That dosn't sound like unproper husbandry to me. Sounds more like I protected the rest of my animals when one got sick. That sounds more like safe keeping.

 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 3:13:38 PM

Krestie Kate
If anything it was improper quarentene on Allens part for shipping the aniamls in the same deli cup.
 
Author Comment 2/5/2010 4:43:33 PM

thestef
i agree with both of you in some ways, I am going to treat them because they have never been treated before. I don't really get why everyones pissed at eachother over difference of opinions. I haven't even had all of my collection for 90 days, and although they have all been kept seperate and such, I have no idea what's gone on with some of them. So by treating them all right now I will for sure know that none of them have anything. how does it sound to you like anything? I don't really understand why your saying it sounds like i dont properly practice things :/ what did I ever do to you? It's kind of like vaccinations. although jenny mccarthy is against them, most parents are not. I mean, risk your gecko feeling a little off from medicine, or have them DIE HORRIBLY from some crazy thing. I'm just trying to be safe, I know I practice proper things, but I have no ideaaa what the people before me did with the geckos, there are only two, hermes, and the little red one, that come from trusted breeders, the other ones we found here and there and fell in love with :D I'm just trying to ensure longevity in my crestie companions. 
thanks for everyones advice.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 5:10:36 PM

Krestie Kate
Welcome to iherp stef when you ask questions people will fight with one anouther on wether or not you were given the right answer. This was really a pretty mild argument you should stick around for the bad ones.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 5:26:38 PM

TVR
"and im not doubting allen rephasy, he has more experience than i could dream of, but why is he in need of a the product in an otherwise healthy population of CB geckos?"

Because Entomoeba is nothing to play around with.  It can wipe out an entire colony in a very short amount of time.
 
Member Comment 2/5/2010 7:41:43 PM

WhiteHillReptile

if you want specific numbers i can get out the old hatch books. but my sole source of income when i was in college was raising leopards among other miscellaneous reptiles back in 2001-2003 and then got rid of those to do cresteds.  got tired of lizards, so sold that and got back into back into arboreals because i got tired of the travel time involved in doing shows and the smell of  600 lizards along with their food.  not to mention that the arboreals are what really get me up in the morning.  its a matter of me backing off of lizards so that i could enjoy my passion again as a hobby.   the guy that was my business partner also decided to back away from reptiles for a while and his "thing" was geckos.  still is actually  http://vmwreptiles.weebly.com 

this isnt a matter of arguing.  and once again i never stated i was an expert, just that i do have a lot of experience with not only raising cresteds but many other animals as well.  its through this experience when it was my only source of income.  i couldnt afford to have anything go wrong with my collection at that time.  i havent gotten nasty or personal, just stating my opinions on something i feel strongly about and what works.  through all of this i have NEVER treated one single animal for anything that wasnt appearant.   you have a great collection and i applaud how you take care of your animals.  i just think that over treating animals is not only useless but dangerous. 

as for allen not having proper quarantine procedures this again we come back to buddy and I's original statements.  if he is following the same proactive treatment that you are describing you shouldnt have had a problem with any of this.  not bashing at all, just my thoughts.  and if he is proactively treating then its appearantly not having the desired results in wiping an animal clean.  

FWIW
Tre' Hill

 
Accepted Answer 2/10/2010 12:07:18 AM

danicat83
I have been a veterinary technician for many years. We highly recommend deworming once yearly, especially any animal that eats live rodents or crickets. Crickets carry many parasites. And as for fecal examinations, they are often misleading. For one we are only spinning down and looking at a small amount of fecal matter, a tiny portion of the gut content of an animal. Yes it is true, if there is a very bad infection this will most likely show the cause... but we can miss a parasitic infection easily, even sending out to a laboratory is not 100%. Personally I have never dewormed a baby reptile that isn't showing signs of an infection, unless a cagemate showed signs of infection. I worry about overdoing it on the little guys, but I may just be being too careful. If you deworm a young animal just be super careful to dose properly and not overdose the animal.
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