Blog :

Don't Use Provent-A-Mite for Hognoses

Posted by Tiki108 at 11/17/2011 6:53:09 PM

This is something that I read about and thought everyone should know who has hognoses.

I've heard of several cases where PAM was used correctly for hognoses and they have died.

Doom and I recently talked about this and decided it might be a good thing for everyone to know.

This is where I first heard about it:

http://snakebytestv.ning.com/profiles/blogs/proproducts-response-to-my

Hope this helps anyone who may have a hoggies with mites.

Comments:

View Oldest First

Pope of iHerp and Bread,	Posted At: 11/17/2011 7:08:03 PM
	Good to know.

Ashley Dezan,	Posted At: 11/17/2011 7:45:34 PM
	Ive seen it first hand with them...mega convulsions :(

Lauren ,	Posted At: 11/17/2011 8:24:44 PM
	I have also been warned about using it with chondros. Generally when there's an unknown chondro death, PAM has been used in the cage before (in several cases).

Michael ,	Posted At: 11/17/2011 8:40:59 PM
	I lost a baby Hog 2 weeks after geting her she ate twice for me and was doing fine then i found her dead upside down in her cage I'm thinking The PAM may have been what did it. I sprayed all 3 tubs with it and let them dry in front of a fan and added the 3 new hog's a day later ,, so I know I followed the instructions

Jennifer White,	Posted At: 11/17/2011 10:52:39 PM
	Thanks for sharing.

Nick Gordon,	Posted At: 11/17/2011 11:01:21 PM
	Does anyone know if this has ever happened with leopard geckos

Thomas ,	Posted At: 11/17/2011 11:32:15 PM
	The active ingredient in PAM is permethrin (0.5 %), which is a neurotoxin that affects nerve membrane sodium channels. While it is safe to use for most snake species, for some reason, Heterodon sp. are among those species that show severe neurological symptoms whenever exposed to permethrin. As a note of interest, it has also been shown to be carcinogenic (causing tumors) in mice that had ingested it, so it is not a bad idea to avoid feeding snakes inside of an enclosure that has been treated with it.

Aaron Florian,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 12:21:17 AM
	This is interesting, however the lack of actual evidence on that thread (and just stating opinion as fact) is underwhelming. > Generally when there's an unknown chondro death, PAM has been used in the cage before (in several cases). Whoa, that's a big statement. I've used it on no less than two chondros (possibly 3) without any ill effects whatsoever.

Thomas ,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 12:24:10 AM
	Aaron - agreed. I've personally used it on about 20 chondros, without any ill effects.

Lauren ,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 8:36:29 AM
	Sorry Aaron, its not a fact, but I did have someone tell that to me when Harmony died. I'm not claiming its true at all.

Lauren ,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 8:36:53 AM
	If there were an edit button on posts I could change that. :p

Aaron Florian,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 9:28:42 AM
	And then this conversation would lose all flow and look stupid :P

Brandon Osborne,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 9:34:03 AM
	I have directly sprayed a chondro with the generic version, "bedding spray", with no ill effects. I let the spray sit for about 5 minutes and rinsed the chondro thoroughly under a shower. I also allowed the snake to sit under the shower for about 5 minutes before treating to allow her to curb the urge to drink while being treated. I did this on 3 separate occasions.

Tiki108,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 12:06:27 PM
	Aaron, I agree there isn't that much proof, other than a couple people telling me, imo it's not worth the risk to my hoggies.

Aaron Florian,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 1:16:22 PM
	I'm not saying its true or not true, however,.. conjecture, stating something as fact and repeating it is why snakes are slimy, i have a friend who was chased by a snake for three miles, all chondros are mean, etc etc. Without more than anecdotal evidence, I question and always will. There's science afoot.

Tiki108,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 1:29:02 PM
	Very good point, I think it should be looked into though since it seems at least a couple hoggies have died after the use of PAM. If it's not true great, but if it is true PAM should put a warning about it, and Thomas brings up a good point as well that I was not aware of.

Aaron Florian,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 2:09:21 PM
	Well the fact of the matter is that when you're using PAM, you're typically using it on compromised animals (i.e., Mite infested animals) to begin with, so you already are rocking two variables... one is the PAM, and the other is that you've got an animal from a filthy dealer.

Ashley Dezan,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 2:39:12 PM
	in the case I saw was with an albino hognose. the animal was fine but the bedding was sprayed after an expo as a precaution. the next day in the store it was having constistant seizures and oddly surivived. They said it wasnt the first time that happened after spraying with PAM

Michael ,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 4:37:03 PM
	I spray every new snake I gets cage with pam as part of my Guaranteen process .. no matter where it comes from as I did with my 3 hoggies which came from a very close friend.. and one did die 2 weeks later and it was found upside down . so I'm just saying maybee there is something to this that needs to be looked into. I just know I wont use it in any hog's unless I find out for sure its safe for them ..

Greg Jackson,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 6:06:47 PM
	Michael...is it really necessary or wise to use PAM as a preventative? I'm not criticizing, but I don't want to introduce any chemicals into my snakes environments without a problem. That's just me. Knock on wood, I've never had a mite in my collection, so maybe I am looking through rose-colored glasses.

Michael ,	Posted At: 11/18/2011 8:09:07 PM
	I haven't had a Mite in my collectionin recent years. either but Better safe then sorry ..If I got them now id be screwed ! It's suposed to be "safe " and Mite proventitive and used on the outdises of your cages every month as a shield against Mites .. Better safe then sorry .. Its kinda like a condom or a handgun ,, better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it !

Karl Brown,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 12:19:08 AM
	Personal opinion, this stuff is a poison, and i would only use to treat a mite problem. I would not expose my reptiles to a chemical unless needed. Its not safe, not even for us. (interface doesn't work well on my phone so i cant paste the link) www.pestacideinfo.org search->products= provent-a-mite (could someone on a computer please post a quick link for this)

Buddy Buscemi,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 8:04:26 AM
	Correlation does not prove causation. A good rule for scientific mined people like ourselves to remember. While I might think I am scientific minded, I am not a reasearch scientist. Although my wife is, and she will kindly remind me of the statement above.

Tiki108,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 10:10:09 AM
	Buddy, my boyfriend is a scientist as well and while that statement is true he agrees that the risk is not worth it, would you risk the life of your hognoses? I wouldn't, I would use a different brand for my hognoses and my boyfriend agrees, whether it's enough proof to prove it's true is different. It could not be true, but as I said it's not worth the risk in my opinion.

Thomas ,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 10:45:53 AM
	Let's get a grip here. The effects of permethrin on hognoses have never been studied, and chances are that they never will be. In the meantime, we have little choice but to rely on what anecdotal information that we have. The sensitivity of Heterodon sp. to exposure of permethrin is nothing new, with various incidents having been reported since PAM was first marketed. In addition, the reported symptoms appear to be neurological, which is exactly what one would expect from a neurotoxin. Based on that information, everyone needs to decide for themselves whether it is worth exposing their Heterodon sp. to permethrin. As a fellow scientist, I find it a bit silly to try to establish a standard that is nearly impossible to meet, especially when it concerns the health of my personal animals. At the same time, I have yet to see any evidence that would lead me to suspect that permethrin has a similar effect on green tree pythons. In fact, I have seen sufficient evidence to the contrary - I have treated approximately 20 specimens with permethrin, without any observed ill effects.

Aaron Florian,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 11:10:20 AM
	And Thomas, that's why this ends up being a discussion at all. It is far too easy for the keeper to blame their problems on a someone or something else. "The sick snake I got on Craigslist that had mites I treated with PAM, it died, therefore PAM must be the reason". Uh, no. "My baby chondro won't eat, so it's the seller's fault they didn't sell me a feeding baby". No, you're keeping it in a glass box in a high traffic area at 65 degrees. I'm not saying in any case that Heterodon are more or less PAM friendly than other animals. However in my experience internetting, I see things and other people blamed too readily, while the real problem (hubandry error) goes unmended. Making that claim against Heterodon is the same as making it against Chondros. Both lines of thinking need to be questioned, analyzed with as much data as we can get, and acted on with the keepers best judgement. I'm going to avoid all of this altogether by buying from breeders who don't have mites, and if they do, calling them out publicly. With all of the treatments and information at our hands these days, there is absolutely, 100% NO reason mites should be in anyones collection. Period. The only time I've had them was getting imports, and nothing came in or went out of my collection until I had it corrected.

Tiki108,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 11:38:32 AM
	I agree it's up to the owner to decide, but I personally would not use PAM on my hognoses, but that's just me.

Colleen ,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 2:18:53 PM
	Interesting conversation. I know a few people that use PAM in their bedding as a preventative. They mix it in and let it sit and do it that way. It seemed like overkill to me and potentially extremely harmful to the animals if there is no mite issua at hand to balance out the risk benefit ratio. But I have been lucky so far to not have had to deal with mites in my animals...I might have a different opinion if that I had battled them at some point.

Buddy Buscemi,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 3:28:23 PM
	Each and every person has to decide what is at *risk* when a new animal is brought into an established collection. Doom stated that he used PAM on 3 hogs and one has died ( sorry for your loss Michael), but two lived. So we are focusing on the one that died because it was the outcome we were expecting. We are not focusing on the the fact the other 2 are still alive. This is a great example of Observer Bias. We have a particular opinion about what we expect to see. PAM + Hognose snake= dead hognose, so we see only that and disreagrd all the other information presented. PAM + 3 Hogs = 2 alive , and one dead. To Tiki108 since you asked here is my answer. Yes, I would treat them as though they are covered in mites whether they are or not. ( A good reason why I have never had mites in my collection....I even do this when I have an animals that is returned from a breeding loan). To me personally, my collection is more important then one or two animals in qaurantine. I'd rather take my chance with the one or two animals then allowing my entire collection to be put at risk with an external parasite that can carry a blood born pathogen.

Greg Jackson,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 4:02:51 PM
	To Buddy: why not quarantine and observe rather than quarantine and use chemicals? I know, it's your choice. I am just asking the question, looking for your logic. I personally prefer to go the no-pesticide route. I've been keeping and breeding snakes for over 40 years and never had a mite, so I (again looking through rose colored glasses) don't see the need for chemical preventatives, when in my experience, quarantine and observation is sufficient.

Buddy Buscemi,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 4:11:22 PM
	Greg My personal reason was already stated in the above post.

Karl Brown,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 4:46:54 PM
	I can see pepole with larger collections using this as a preventative measure, but what i have an issue with is how people talk about this stuf like its a simple harmless product. There are other preventative measures that can be used that are good for small collections like baking new substrate to kill paracites, also not buying substrate from places that also sell reptiles. .

Michael ,	Posted At: 11/19/2011 4:48:15 PM
	I agree with Buddy 100% I am not saying PAM Killed my hog I am saying if pam is toxic to hogs maybee there is a coalition there and I also stated it's something that should be looked into .. I treat ever new animal in my house like its Tainted .. I have way to much to loose by not maintaining a strick quaranteen process

Meg Francoeur,	Posted At: 11/20/2011 5:58:07 PM
	I only use PAM if there is a mite issue. All snakes are quarantined for a minimum of 3 months, so releasing mites into my collection is never an issue. I've had 2 snakes out of all the ones I've bought that had mites. All were in quarantine when they showed up. I've treated a false water cobra and one amazon that were both in quarantine (separate occasions) when they were infected. The mites showed up one month into quarantine on the amazon, and 2 weeks into quarantine on the FWC. I've never had any issues with PAM and find it to be extremely safe and effective. Usually one treatment is all that's needed.

DurhamCarpet,	Posted At: 6/19/2017 1:21:40 AM
	The Online has wholly transformed exactly how we buy everything, like clothes, boots or shoes, cosmetics, nighty, etc. it is far from surprising to seek out so most women shopping internet for bras, panties and loads of lingerie. buy women bra online

Member Login

User Name:	*
Password:	*
Remember Me

Forgot My Password

Our Newest Animals!

Orangemale

Nisselokeo

Unnamed Aberrant

TribalCorns

Unnamed Aberrant

TribalCorns

188008 Registered animals!

NEW!! See The Rest of the new Arrivals!

Thanks!!!

Thanks to everyone who helped test the new features. If you find any problems, please
Let Me Know.

Todays Birthdays

smoothmac , EbonayiasGirl , AresPLimpot , delonybro , bec11mort , smh825 , ididnessie , jwason , shumes , Shawnufm , The Scrammy , Reptile Style , Antoine , thedarkwolf25 , vinlandherps , GsRepties , DaVine Herps , Marco T. , Skorfour , Roaming Reptiles , Islandcorns , Dripping Exotics , glyn_bowles , ACH , cooldragon , IntoTheWildReptiles , satanmike , ShadowRancher , benes10 , Tongasaurus , Bellashesha , carpetpython99 , MilLurtliwat , Vincit Marshall , noyes27 , Clyde Frog , RoamingReptilesCal , sweetangel , mnoll406 , AMcRee , Dizmo , misspeachesx , SexyBear77 , Mmuncy , PlanetReptile , darrial , Dan93 , Fafnir , LowerFormOfLife , BoBjep , AJS Lizard Lounge , JezaimssmiFs , Yandobagot , Leatherneck Reptiles , EOTechpht , Edwardgoamy , Utawokbib , CCsBabyDinos , ChloeDuS , castile , elianawic , Savannah92 , Tazonetip , Krypticreptiles , morcelo7 , Edelbrockrbp , 36knuck , Terrakin , Butterfly , JuanikeRep , Lamia Wafu , Foamdlw , pcnelson2 , appa25 , Visiongai , Michaelneock , Securitycxf , CDAreptiles