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Author Comment
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12/8/2009 9:59:21 PM
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hupababy83
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PS these things looked like white ticks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Accepted Answer
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12/8/2009 10:01:09 PM
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Geckofactor
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It's fine for your snake to eat it. I've fed more questionable skin disorder ridden rats to snakes in the past. God only knows what kind if stuff is growing on the cows we eat.
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Member Comment
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12/8/2009 10:04:42 PM
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bwaffa
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Lovely, Denise! Without doing a skin scrape or an expensive pathology workup it's going to be impossible to say definitively what those rats had. The most likely culprit though was either lice or mites, but an autoimmune or allergic component is entirely possible too. In any case, freezing those rats for more than 24 hours would have killed any of those ectoparasites and congenital defects or autoimmune disorders would have been the rat's problem -- not your snakes. Foul though it looks, I'm going to speculate pretty confidently that you've got nothing to worry about...
But I wouldn't eat them! Maybe it's time to find a new supplier?
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Member Comment
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12/8/2009 10:09:39 PM
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bfpsteeler67
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yuk,looks like lice to me.I think it is time for another supplier
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Member Comment
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12/8/2009 10:46:51 PM
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bfpsteeler67
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I wouldnt sweat it chicky baby....I use to have bumpy things like that on my shizzle and doc just gave me a shot....easy peasy japaneasy....lol
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Member Comment
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12/8/2009 11:09:56 PM
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gfx
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Dunno. What's it taste like? Looks like cinnamon crumbles to me.
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Member Comment
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12/8/2009 11:30:11 PM
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Geckofactor
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To put this question to rest what it actually is is very very late stage sarcoptic mange mites. Like I said fine for the snake to eat especially if that rat had been frozen. They do cause skin irritation in humans but it's usually pretty mild.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 12:50:13 AM
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bwaffa
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Ken, on what basis can you possibly say definitively that this is sarcoptic mange? You'd have to do a skin scraping under a microscope to differentiate Sarcoptes from the myriad other critters that cause these symptoms. Critters like Notoedres muris, the common rat ear mite, which seems like a much more likely candidate to me. And you'd still need to do a skin scraping to be sure! Sarcoptes mites typically cause noticeable hair loss in furry mammals which isn't indicated by these photographs. Furthremore, Sarcoptes mites do cause significant skin irritation in humans. They're the parasite responsible for scabies, an intensely pruritic and debilitating infestation that remains an ongoing public health problem for developing countries and immunocompromised populations in the United States. I'm not trying to take you to war here. My professors tear me apart over these details; I can't help but be a stickler!
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 12:58:57 AM
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Geckofactor
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Look at a rat with sarcoptic mange it always starts in the ears like that I rarely see hairloss in rats that you see in dogs. Also going by the way she's describing it it's pretty likely. Combine that with the fact that's relatively common in rats in both the U.S and U.K at the very least. Can I say it's that 100% no but taking into co nsideration all those things I'd say most likely yes. Furthermore you're 100% wrong about scabies the human parasite sarcoptes is a completely different species than what that rat presumably has. Lastly Notoedres muris usually chews the ears to pieces in rats I'm not seeing that here. You're in school for this stuff man you should have this down.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 1:53:19 AM
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Geckofactor
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Okay after asking someone else that is 99% sarcoptic mange but sarcotpic mange can be transmitted by Notoedres muris. Everything else I said stands.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 2:11:45 AM
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bwaffa
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Ken, I'd be interested to know how many of the rats you've looked at with "sarcoptic mange" you've actually scraped to diagnose definitively. I have a feeling what you've observed and are calling "sarcoptic mange" is probably attributable to Notoedres, Ornithonyssus, Laelaps or Radfordia species or some combination thereof. Where are you getting your prevalence data for Sarcoptes in rodents? "...common in rats in both the U.S. and U.K."? Of the roughly 200 rats my research team has surveyed from the city of New Orleans in the last year, we've never seen a single sarcoptic infection. And New Orleans is a port city; we get rats from all over the world as we've been able to demonstrate by reconstructing phylogenetic trees of old world viruses. Our parasite findings are consistent with those in other port cities like Baltimore, so I'm just wondering where all the sarcoptic rats are... Sarcoptic mange by definition is caused by mites from the effectively monophyletic genus Sarcoptes (sarcoptic = Sarcoptes). I say "effectively monophyletic" because it is only one species -- Sarcoptes scabei -- that infects and causes pathology in a wide range of mammalian hosts including humans, dogs, ruminants, camelids, horses, and of course rodents. It seems unlikely to me that the pet store rat in the photos above is a genuine sarcoptic case. But what do I know. Time to hit the books!
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 2:28:53 AM
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 2:39:00 AM
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gfx
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Ken - Agree with the man or he's going to kill that poor snake.
Seriously, let's put this to rest. I can say with 99% certainty that those are cinnamon crumbles. The poor thing is even in the cinnamon crumble cake eating hunch. It clearly found a donut in the CO2 chamber.
(scrap and culture that thing, I want to know who's right)
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 2:47:15 AM
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Kita
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lol, gfx! Cinnamon crumbles! Come on peeps, no need to argue. Can't we just clear this up with how rare a mammal problem can be transmitted/compatible to a reptile, thus making this harmless for the snakes?
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 2:48:18 AM
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jeremyk
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ewwww! its gross thats what it is. i wouldnt offer somthin like that to any of my animals.......nasty.......find a new rodent guy
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 2:55:50 AM
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bwaffa
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Sorry, Brian -- it's finals week. I retract everything I said anyway. On closer inspection Julie is right. They ARE cinnamon crumbles.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 3:06:17 AM
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masterfulpoopsie
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Cinnamon crumbles psh more like frosted flakes! there just falling off
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 8:38:25 AM
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Geckofactor
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Brad look it up you're wrong deal with it.
http://www.rathealth.co.uk/articles/mangemites.html
http://ratguide.com/health/integumentary_skin/ectoparasites.php
There are different variations of scarcoptes. What gives mange to humans is considered Notoedres muris is considered a "sarcoptid like" mite thus they call the condition that rat has sarcoptic mange. They call the damn thing the ear mange mite apparently so if it helps you sleep at night to call that ear mange instead of sarcoptic then go ahead but again I'm 99% on this. As for your study it's pretty common in pet rats I'm not sure what you studied or what new orleans has to do with it but whatever most of the people i know who breed rats has seen it at one point in time or another. When i say pretty common I guess I don't mean 1 in 5 rats I mean greg house isn't going to have to come to tell you what it is.
I don't have that fancy book learnin you do just a few semesters down at the community college so I could keep them there poison snakes but I reckon I've seen a varmit or two.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 8:42:21 AM
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Geckofactor
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Oops that first sentence should red sarcoptes scabiei var hominis is what gives humans mange.
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Assisted Answer
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12/9/2009 11:27:11 AM
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shellboa
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I'm chiming in to agree with Ken on this one. We have been dealing with this in our rat colony for a while now and what is irritating as hell is that we can wash EVERYTHING and it some how keeps popping back up. Easy as hell to treat with Ivermectin but still damned annoying. I have fed both live and frozen rats with this to my entire snake collection and have not had one show any adverse effects. Not to mention if that feeder was indeed frozen (look like it from the picture) any mites or other type of cooties would be dead anyway.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 11:46:16 AM
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amarilrose
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Ken, let it go. Those cinnamon crumbles are grodie... I don't want to eat them on my steak, and I wouldn't feed them to my snakes on their rats.
Honestly guys, Brad's main point was that you can't be certain what those things are without doing some actual diagnostics on the rat... because there are SO MANY things it could be. What about warts? Brad's the seriously knowledgeable guy on viruses (as I am NOT). As I understand it, all warts are caused by viruses. If the rat is infested with some kind of wart virus, could that survive freezing and possibly harm the snake? I would worry about it, and just to be safe, Betty, get rid of that thing & get different rats, from some other supplier.
By the way Ken, you said: "God only knows what kind if stuff is growing on the cows we eat." That is out of line. That points fingers at my profession, and it's completely erroneous. I'm pretty busy at this moment, so I'll try to keep this brief, but did you know that every livestock animal slaughtered in this country is thoroughly examined by a USDA inspector? They examine the animal before slaughter, looking for any signs of diease (body temperature, skin condition, hair coat, eyes, mucous membranes, behavior, etcetera), and then again immediately following slaughter, looking at a long list of characteristics of each animal's organs to ensure there are no signs of disease. This is referred to in the industry as a "wholesomeness inspection" and it is government-mandated. Info from USDA here: http://origin-www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Inspection_&_Grading/index.asp
For all that people like to commonly complain about the meat produced and consumed in this country, our meat industry is THE MOST HEAVILY REGULATED IN THE WORLD. You really aren't going to find "safer" or "more wholesome" meat anywhere else... and for all the "natural" and "organic"-crazed folks out there, if you actually look at how some of those animals are produced and processed, I would start to worry about eating meat from them... why pay more for that?!
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 11:47:28 AM
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amarilrose
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shellboa, what makes you say you agree with Ken? On the points you've made, I don't think either Brad or Ken would disagree.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 11:48:49 AM
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Geckofactor
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Crazy stuff Michelle agreeing with me again. I figured someone who actually breeds rats in any sort of real numbers would agree though.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 12:17:26 PM
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Kita
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Holy cow (rat?) B! Remind me not to ask questions around here. It is amusing to watch from the side lines though. You getting anything helpful out of this 'banter'?
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 12:52:18 PM
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Geckofactor
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Rebecca look at it from a veterinary standpoint if you took that rat to the vet they would say exactly what I said and if it was anything similar the same treatment would fix it so they wouldn't waste money on a test. Brad is by far not the virus expert you're making him out to be the dude is in school period and if anyone said it was warts I must have missed that. With that said Bradis a reasonably smart guy I agree with a lot of what he says but I'd be willing to bet money that I'm right and if she still has the rat and anyone wants to put money on it againt their specific theory I will. If I've ever made a completely ignorant post in answers find it for me and I'll be more likely to concede but I usually don't answer here unless I'm reasonably sure of my answer.
Don't be so sensitive about your profession you have to know cows get some funky superficial stuff and we've all seen the videos of the cows with giant holes in them being grain fed. You act like nobody in this country gets e coli we've even had isolated cases of mad cow no system is perfect but what I'm talking about is superficial non zoonotic stuff. You act like I'm Oprah. I eat meat all the time I'm not saying don't eat it don't turn this into some b.s agenda. I was saying I'd eat a cow with a similar ailment and you all probably have as well and didn't know it.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 1:02:32 PM
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Geckofactor
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Also a good reason someone would believe me over Brad on this issue is he's already been proven wrong by saying a rat with sarcoptic mange would lose fur like a dog and that humans would be adversly affected by it. Look I'm sorry I crushed your dreams about Brad being flawless I really am but for the love of god read from the links I posted before you try to disprove what I've said hell even I admitted I was mistaken by thinking there was a slight difference between Notoedres muris and mites that cause sarcoptic mange in rats from what I remembered there was a difference there is not though we don't know a ton about these guys. So why would I "let it go" if I'm right?
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 1:21:58 PM
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amarilrose
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Ok, look, I don't even know why you guys are bothering with an argument; Ken I think if you were to read Brad's statements closely you would probably agree with him.
I think you're making an awful lot of uneccessary inflamatory statements.
1) Don't tell me not to be sensitive about a random slur on my profession that is commonly believed, particularly when I can counter it with facts. (leads into #4)
2) I'm not sure what you're referring to about "cows with holes in them being grain fed" that "we've all seen," unless you're referring to a fistulated cow that is used for research; these animals have surgery to place a fistula (like a porthole) into their side, so researchers can actually take direct samples from the rumen on a daily or hourly basis, whatever the research calls for. That is completely unrelated to the meat industry.
3) E. coli - try reading any of the USDA's material about safety inspections and recalls; the point is that we have the system we do so that as soon as a problem is discovered, the threat is minimized (as E. coli is typically a processing issue, or a safe product handling issue, not a diseased animal issue).
4) BSE: We (as in the USA through the USDA) also have THE tightest control and monitoring systems concerning BSE. Do some real research & find out why BSE is such a problem everywhere else but in the US; it makes HEADLINES here because the same people who are pushing the media spin so hard about Burms in the Everglades are doing the same thing to the meat industry - they want it GONE!
5) I have no idea what your agenda is Ken, and I'm not trying to label it one way or another. I countered on inflamatory statement you made with facts. Try reading the reference I cited. Better yet, try this one, it has easy-to-read bullet points: Slaughter Inspection 101
Betty and everyone else, I do hope this is at least somewhat informative, even if off topic a bit. :)
happy herping
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Author Comment
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12/9/2009 1:28:36 PM
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hupababy83
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All i got was it could be several things, none that could hurt my snakes, and its my choice wheather i wanna feed that kinda rat to my snakes or not. And its a big NOT! EEEESH i wont eat a steak or salad with those things on it, so my snakes wont be eating a roent chop with them on it either. Soon as my card comes in, I'll be ordering my feeder rats from Rodent Pro. Until then I have enough feeders with out the cinnamon crumbles. And yeah uhmmm dont think im posting another question anytime soon. THANK YOU ALL
OH and i thru the rat in the dumpster lastnight! Im not dumpster diving for a dead rat!
Kita, dont ask questions, its best to stay ignorant on some subjects. Now how do i split these points?!?!
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 1:30:39 PM
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Geckofactor
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Rebecca I asked you not to turn this into your own agenda like you seem to do with everything. What have you contributed to the question at hand? It's people like you that seriously make me not answer half of the stuff on here. The things I posted about the original matter are facts I disproved Brad with facts. Hopefully your post will be removed as it detracts from the original question.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 1:33:32 PM
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gfx
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I find it very interesting. Even Ken's stuff, though I'd find him a little easier to agree with if he didn't often approach discussion/debate with "I'm right, F you". I can read through it tho.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 1:48:47 PM
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Geckofactor
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I wouldn't have to take the i'm right F you approach if people didn't say ignorant things or talk down. The only way I'm even taking that approach is with Rebecca who brought absolutely nothing to the table and with Brad on a few key points he made that were disproven by evidence other people discovered and published people who are actually long since done with school and he got heated about it first I was just answering the question. Why shouldn't I show someone how they're wrong? If I asked a question and someone said something wrong in the answer I'd want someone to correct them so I got a more informed answer.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 1:53:26 PM
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gfx
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I have a thick enough skin that I don't really care if you're an F you kinda guy. If you're really trying to educate, you're approach could be better. Doesn't matter to me how you like to debate, but you'd probably come off as more authoritative if you didn't start with the big stick approach. It's a lesson I've had to learn myself. You can't help me anyhow, I still say they're crumbles and I want the OP to give 'em a lick and let me know if that's the truth. Mange mites my arse.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 2:00:01 PM
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Geckofactor
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I just want to make things slightly more clear I said previously I agree with a fair amount of what Brad says in answers he said he's stressed out from finals if that's the case and that's the reason he decided to jump on this inane issue then so be it. Also I'm the first to admit I can be a dick but I'm not a stupid dick usually when I say something it's based on some sort of factual basis. If anything me taking a brash stance on anything I say here it opens me up as a much bigger target to be discredited on anything. Like I said if anybody can go back and point to a question I answered that was totally off base and ignorant go for it and I usually do answer a fair amount. Until then when somebody says something that I don't agree with one could take my attitude as an F you attitude and nobody has to take any advice I give or accept any answer. We all have off days and we're all going to be proven wrong on something or another if we post in public forums I'm not trying to embarass anyone or even make myself look any better I just don't care that much. If I'm bored I'll answer a question or two if I h ave a big stick approach so be it.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 5:51:02 PM
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shellboa
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I was simply agreeing that it was sarcoptic mites causing a mange type reaction. Not trying to feed into a debate. I actually had those exact symptoms and took a skin sample for testing and the vet said that is what it was. I treated them with Ivermectin and the symptoms disappeared and their ear and tail skin returned to its normal look. I fed the affected rats to my snakes and none of them suffered any ill effects.
I think Brad is a smart guy and knows a lot of stuff, maybe he just hasn't personally dealt with this situation? I also think that even tho Ken is an antisocial grump (kiss kiss honey) he has a lot of experience and knowledge as well. I don't know a damn thing about cows etc. and did not realise that the debate was even there when I said I agreed with Ken.
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Author Comment
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12/9/2009 5:59:37 PM
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hupababy83
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ok I chose the answers i did because they were simple, and to the point. looks like _____ and will not harm the snake. I myself never chose sides. just simplness.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 6:01:13 PM
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Geckofactor
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Michelle I think you should get a cow to go with the chickens. Atleast a goat they can live inside.
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 6:51:32 PM
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Aimee
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how did the rat smell? if it smelled nasty at all, I'd wonder if the little white guys were maggots.
and...eeuwww...I'm with you. if I think the rat's not healthy, my snake doesn't get it...whether or not it's actually harmful, it's just not worth it.
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Author Comment
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12/9/2009 7:00:58 PM
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hupababy83
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the rat had no oder, just those white tick thingys. they were in the ears and a few on the neck, feet and tail were scabby, and just looked nasty!!!!
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Member Comment
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12/9/2009 8:09:27 PM
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bwaffa
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It's a shame that anyone should feel intimidated to ask or reply to a question on this forum. If anyone has a question or wants to have a serious discussion about zoonotic parasitology please don't hesitate to shoot me a PM.
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