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Q: Breeding Mice for the first time...
Posted By:

Sn8keGunner

    

  I am new to breeding mice.  I have built my snake collection up pretty fast, and know its only getting bigger.  So, now I am realizing that buying f/t mice is going to be way too expensive, so I needed to find another way to feed my snakes.  Breeding is that solution. 
  A couple months ago, I put together a 32qt tub made for mice.  it has a water bottle, millions of tiny airholes, all the necessary chew things, plenty of mouse food, and use wood shavings (looks like aspen, but isnt) for the substrate.  And finally I added a single male, with 4 female mice inside.  
  Its been about 2 months or so now, and I havent seen one mouse that even looke like she could be pregnant!  I've heard that it takes a little bit for the mice to get used to eachother, and then it takes about 28 days once pregnant for the mice to give birth.  So, a couple weeks ago, I made a second tub exactly the same way, and placed one male and 4 females inside.
  I'm getting frusterated!  LOL.  I know it will happen eventually, and probably be overrun by mice.  I'm wondering If I maybe forgot a step, or maybe I'm doing domething wrong, or maybe there's something else I could be doing to help. 
   Here in the next couple weeks, Ill be building a (vertically stacked) 5 tub breeding rack for the mice.  Ill hopefully be ordering the nicer water system online, one like the breeders and MiceDirect use.  I want to make this thing work smoother, cheaper, and easier on me.  
  
Here are a few questions I have to anyone with experience breeding mice:
1)  The food Im using now is too expensive to be buying in bulk.  What kind of food (and where is it sold)do most mice breeders use?
2)  Also, I was curious about what temperatures I need to keep the mice in, if it even makes a difference at all.  The mice are already stinking up my house, and want to keep them outside in my metal shed (small with sliding doors adn no insulation or AC).  Right now, the temperatures are around 35 degrees, and go up to around 60 degrees during the daytime.  During the summer here, our days can go all the way up to 105 degrees, but usually average about 85 to 90), and at night it ranges from 50 to 65degrees.  The last thing I want to do is freeze or cook them to death, but need a better smelling solution.
3)  If I must breed the mice indoors, then what are some ways to keep the odor down?
4)  Where can I find the cheapest tubs?
5)  What are some imformative websites I can check out?
6)  Does anyone have some useful tips to help me out?
  
Thank all of you that listened, and I hope some have great feedback for me!  

Keenan
 
 

Points: 100
Topics: Knowledge Base
Tags: Breeding, Feed, Feeders, Mice
Administrative: Show/Hide

Member Comment 4/29/2010 2:58:26 PM

Krestie Kate
Where are you buying frozen that are more expensive than breeding the mice?
 
Member Comment 4/29/2010 3:39:11 PM

Synath
Just for the couple of pet mice I had it took nearly 6 weeks of cohabitation.. then 28 days later my older female was just dropping babies all over.   Just let them do their thing. 
 
Member Comment 4/29/2010 6:10:13 PM

EbonayiasGirl
I agree with Candace.  My boyfriend used to breed mice.  If it's still cold outside just fill their tank with 1/3 thickness of bedding.  They will stay warm and do just fine.  His lived in a 25 gallon tank out in the garage all winter, spring, summer and fall.  No heat, just food and water.  Mice are easy.  Unless you want to get really technical just let them do their thing.  I bred rats for the longest time.  Smell way less and have more fat/calcium/protien than mice.  I'd reccomened rats unless you're feeding something that can't take a pinkie rat on up.  But if you have balls and boa's or large corns, rats in my opinion are the better, cleaner way to go.  I don't know about food in bulk but I can help you along the way from an amature's point of view. :)  Good luck.
 
Member Comment 4/29/2010 6:12:30 PM

EbonayiasGirl
I forgot to mention I bred rats for two years and finally said to hell with it and I'm just going to buy from Rodent Pro or Big Cheese.  WAAAAYYYY cheaper
 
Member Comment 4/29/2010 7:06:08 PM

Squenchy
I have had a small colony of mice and African Soft Furs for 2 years. I originally started with a trio of mice. After 3 months with no signs of pregnancy, I bought a second trio, and had a litter on the groiund within 6 weeks. I gave the original trio to my son as pets, and they only produced one litter in a year and a half. Be patient, but don't wait forever - mice can have fertility problems just like people.

I buy Purina Rodent Diet (pellets) in 50 pound bags for $27, so ~$0.50 per pound which isn't bad. At Petco its $6 for 2 pounds...ouch..and it's crappy Katee brand. Most stores (like Tractor Supply)  that carry livestock feed will order it for you if you pre-pay, so you don't have to pay shipping, it just comes in with the rest of their monthly shipment.

Extremes in temps will lower the productivity of your colony, assuming they survive in the first place.  They do best when kept at temps that are confortable for us too. Soft Furs smell FAR less than mice or rats. It's one reason I went with them. They also get bigger than mice,  80 to 100+ grams, so I prefer them for my ball and carpet pythons. I also use a really high quality air purifier, which helps keep the smell down. I clean cages about every 5-6 days for the mice, the ASFs can go longer without stinking the house up, but ya gotta keep on top of it.

I can also direct you to a few forums that have rodent breeding areas if you want.
Good luck.
 
Accepted Answer 4/29/2010 7:34:09 PM

amarilrose

I think it depends entirely on the numbers of animals you are talking about producing that determines whether buying frozen or breeding your own that is cheapest.

 

I worked in two research labs for 8 months last year, managing their mouse colonies, until I had to leave those two jobs to begin my graduate studies.  I also grew up breeding mice and rats for the snakes my dad & I kept.  I have plenty of experience breeding rodents & I even know a lot of science geeky things about their reproduction.  That being said, I have some questions for you:

 

1) How certain are you of their genders?  If you are unfamiliar with mice, it can actually be pretty easy to missex them.  Also, if you purchased them as weanlings, that is the point in time I personally think they can be most difficult to sex accurately.  This can easily depend on what mouse strain you are dealing with, and factors such as coat color & coat type.  Basically, if you don't actually have 1.4 groups (1 male to 4 females), it can easily throw off a lot of the social dynamics of mouse breeding.

 

2) Do the females seem to accept the male readily?  If your gender ratio is right, sometimes you can still be defeated by social dynamics: if the females oust the male, he won’t ever have the chance to breed them.  If they hate him bad enough, they may vasectomize him (I have seen this).

 

3) Do the females have any kind of fluffy bedding material?  Try giving them half a paper towel to shred.  For some mice, this can make all the difference in the world.  Others plainly don’t care.

 

4) How old do you think these mice are?  It sounds like they shouldn’t be too young anymore, but they could be too old to breed.

 

For your own questions:

1) Food.  Feed a “lab block” or “lab chow” diet.  If there are any feed stores (like for livestock) around you, they can probably get 50 lb bags for you.  The colony I grew up keeping & the lab colonies I managed were all fed a Mazuri chow http://shop.mazuri.com/rodentdiets.aspx

 

2)  Temperatures.  Mice seem to do best at the temperatures we typically keep our homes.  If they were to endure some extremes, I suspect they can do a lot better in cooler temperatures than in hot temperatures.  Heat stress is known to negatively impact reproductive performance.

 

3) Odor.  Males smell much more offensively than females.  Your question about odor actually prompted my first question.  Either way, rodents are stinky.  The labs I worked in used corn cob bedding, changed every 2 weeks.  In the colony I had growing up, I honestly do not remember how often we would change the bedding, but we typically used about 3 parts corn cob bedding to about 1 part cheap kitty litter (adjust that mix to your preference).  For cages that were known to produce large litters, and therefore LOTS of waste & stink, we would also add in some baking soda.

 

4)  Supplies for the reptile industry are incredibly different from what they were when I was growing up, so it is not impossible that someone makes & markets some very nice, sturdy rodent housing that is relatively cheap, but I don’t know who would.  We housed the colony I grew up with in 5-gallon buckets (you can now buy these very easily in hardware/home improvement stores), with hardware cloth “lids.”  Hardware cloth is essentially heavy-duty screen.  Our bucket cages had feed chutes built into the side, and water bottles attached to the outside, with only the spigot coming into the bucket.  The hole around the water access was further reinforced with hardware cloth to prevent the mice from chewing a way out around the waterer.  The hardware cloth lids were just a sheet of the material, cut to be about an inch bigger than the bucket in all directions, and held in place with some small weights (I would advise against the weights – it’s very easy to drop one inside a bucket & kill a mouse, which we only did once in 6+ years of breeding them in this system, but an avoidable risk).

 

5)  What are some imformative websites I can check out?  I honestly only scanned over these quickly, but they look like they will steer you in the right direction.  The first 2 are written from the standpoint of breeding mice for research.  The last one basically takes the approach of breeding them as pets, but it has some very helpful pictures/illustrations.

·         http://ko.cwru.edu/services/musfrming.html

·         http://www.research.uci.edu/tmf/husbandry.htm

·         http://research.unc.edu/dlam/mousebreeding.htm

·        http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/breeding.cfm

 

6) Tips:   (I’m writing all of these assuming that there is no missexing in your current colony)

 

·         Trade the males between the tubs.  If you're wrong, and your females actually are pregnant, they will be impacted by what is known as the "Bruce effect" – this is a pheromone interaction that has been studied in great detail in rodents.  As best as I can explain it off the top of my head, picture one female, and two males, A & B.  The female has been housed with and bred by male A.  While she is pregnant, male A is taken away & replaced with male B.  His pheromones will cause her to abort the litter she is carrying.  That is, unless she is far enough along in gestation (I want to say the threshold is somewhere around day 17)… if she is past day 17 of gestation, she will still carry the litter to term, but male B will almost certainly kill them as soon as they are born.  The reason for this (the “Bruce effect” as well as male B killing pups from male A): the female will again become fertile within 4 days, allowing male B to breed her and pass on his “superior” genes (he must have ousted male A, or male A was eaten, or something like that remember).  I’m suggesting this as a potential way to upset the social dynamics which may be debunking your breeding efforts, and IF it causes a Bruce effect, it will still make your females cycle again sooner.  Observe their behavior.  Take note of whether the males make an attempt to breed or not.

·         If trading the males doesn’t work, you could easily have a problem with both of your bucks, or with a lot of your does, and you don’t really have a way to know which is which.  Therefore, if you trade your males between tubs, and still see nothing as far as pregnancy after 30 days, use those males for feeders, and get some new ones.  Observe behavior.

·         Sometimes, particularly with young males (and I’m not trying to be funny), too many females end up being too distracting.  If you think this may be the problem, try a smaller number of females: 2 or even 1 per male until you see some results.

·         AFTER following the above, you may need to consider replacing your does.

 

Let me know if you have any other questions  :)

 
Member Comment 4/29/2010 7:34:50 PM

amarilrose
whoa!!  sorry for the awful spacing  ^  yikes!
 
Member Comment 4/29/2010 9:13:07 PM

amarilrose
Aaron, that is SO cool!!  I won't ask how you did that because I won't understand the answer anyway... all that "code" stuff  :) 

I LOVE that blogs can get moved to iHerp Answers like this!!  :D
 
Member Comment 1/24/2011 6:54:48 AM

abi21491

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