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Q: Savu Python Sheds while on eggs
Posted By:

PythonHouse

In Relation To:

Savu Large (Shithead) [SAVU-1]
I have a Savu Python on eggs at the moment (Savu Large x Wayan) 

To the best of my knowledge, she has now been on the eggs 65 days.  4 days ago, she loosened her coils and the eggs look great (nice white color with some small indentations)

Every morning, I race to see if the babies have hatched.  This morning in the house was a shedding from her, she is back on the eggs and tightly coiled again.

Anyone ever had a python come off her eggs, shed and then go back on????

Do I leave her alone (extremely aggressive Savu), or let her get on with the job - has she read the manual?????

Points: 250
Topics: Egg Laying , General Health
Tags: Breeding, Eggs, Laying, Liasis, Python, Savu, Shedding
Species: Pythons > Pythons > Liasis mackloti savuensis
Administrative: Show/Hide

Assisted Answer 5/12/2010 11:50:55 PM

FyreFocks
I dont have experience with pythons (much) or maternal incubation methods, but everyone ive spoken with about MI seem to think that momma knows best. If the eggs look good and shes doing her job then i would leave her be.
 
Accepted Answer 5/13/2010 12:16:40 AM

Sonja K. Reptiles
At this point, I'd just let her be and have faith that momma has it all under control. : )
 
Assisted Answer 5/13/2010 12:21:14 AM

amarilrose
It's fascinating to hear that she did that!  I hatched out two clutches this past October with maternal incubation.  Definitely didn't have anything like that happen!

I agree with Nate & Sonja though: leave her with them and see how things progress.  :)   Keep us updated please!
 
Assisted Answer 5/13/2010 12:30:30 AM

Carusima
It's normal ^_^ I've had a few girls shed during the time the eggs were incubating. They'll get off of them, as to not roll them, and shed their skin. Usually it tends to happen sooner than that since it usually means you can get a double clutch out of them, but with MI don't worry about her shedding late since she has all the maternal instincts from staying in contact with her eggs. Definately watch out for the little ones emerging soon!
 
Member Comment 5/13/2010 8:14:44 AM

aaron
what si the typical incubation time for them?
 
Member Comment 5/13/2010 8:55:22 AM

Lucas339
im with arron.  65 days seems long.
 
Author Comment 5/13/2010 9:09:40 AM

PythonHouse
She came off this afternoon again and came out of the nesting box.  I was able to see some of the eggs - there is one at the bottom that looks quite bad, but there is no smell, I can see 2 slugs and 7 good eggs - there will be more at the back and under the ones that I could see, but I don't know what condition they are in.  She went back on them after trying to eat me thru the glass.  There is not much info on captive breeding Savu's, but most say it is around 60 days incubation (?)
 
Assisted Answer 5/13/2010 10:11:00 AM

WhiteHillReptile
I think aaron is hitting on the same thought that crossed my mind, but if I'm not mistaken avg incubation on savu's should be right at the 60 day mark.  You said that they look alright, but you may want to pull them and try to manually pip.  If she left them on 61, she may know something that we dont.  I know that females will sit eggs until she wastes away with them if they are in there which is why if you are doing artificial incubation its important to wash the cage well and give her a bath so that she doesnt try to incubate eggs that arent there.  It's not very common for a female to leave eggs, and most shed directly after eggs are supposed to hatch, even when you pull eggs a lot of females will go through a shed cycle 60 days after laying. 
 
not saying that they are bad for sure, but at 65 days, i would pull them and try to manually pip.  If they arent bad, you may already have full term neos that have drowned.  

FWIW
Tre'
 
Assisted Answer 5/13/2010 11:05:08 AM

dalvers63
Longer incubation times can and will occur at slightly lower temperatures. What's the temp been in her box?

My IJ went 64 days before her eggs pipped and she was kept between 85-88F during incubation. I figure the slightly longer time period was due to the lower temps at times while she was on the eggs.
 
Assisted Answer 5/13/2010 11:25:50 AM

Lucas339
i agree with tre.  it might be time to cut the eggs open and see what you have.
 
Assisted Answer 5/13/2010 11:51:25 AM

WhiteHillReptile
even at a lower temp, 65 days is quite a while and manually pipping just a few days early isn't going to hurt anything.  I would test one egg and if the neo is alive with good pigmentation (usually one of the last things to develop) and very little yolk i would cut the rest and get them out of there.  especially if she is already leaving eggs regularly and coming back.
 
my guess is that if the eggs are in fact good it may be too late and you will have a large percentage of dead fully formed neos.  

let us know what the results are.
 
Author Comment 5/13/2010 10:20:30 PM

PythonHouse
UPDATE:
We got the mother off the eggs this morning, took the clutch out and pipped one egg.  There is egg white, and we see movement.  Color is also present.  We have placed them in the incubator (which has my burmese eggs in it!) and will monitor them very carefully.  They are not yet ready to come out (I think), so 66 days is not out of the question with this species.  The temps in her tank are 30.2 deg. celsius and 96% humidity.

I'll get a photo up soon.  I was surprised at how big the eggs were - they are larger than my GTP eggs.
 
Assisted Answer 5/14/2010 3:36:25 AM

amarilrose
I'm with Deb on this one; we may like to think that X number of days is all these guys need, but there is significant variation in everything, especially gestation/incubation time!!  I mentioned earlier that I hatched out two clutches from my Ball Pythons in October using maternal incubation.  The first clutch pipped on day 61.  The second clutch pipped on day 72.

Generally, we like to think of 60 days being a normal incubation period for python eggs, but just as humans vary a lot from what we like to think is a "standard" 9-month gestation, so too do the gestation and incubation time periods for just about every species known.


I can tell you that during my two females' incubation of their '09 clutches, they were housed in the same rack, with the same temperatures and materials provided to them.  I also measured their temperatures and those of the eggs often with an infra-red temp gun.  The clutch that hatched on day 61 was incubated at about 85° F, and the clutch that hatched on day 72 was incubated at about 83° F.  Most people I have heard of who use artificial incubation aim for around 88° F in their incubators. 

Of note, I did also move soon after my females laid their eggs.  During the move, they did suffer a low temperature shock, down to 60° F.  I discussed this with my vet, particularly after the second clutch went well beyond the expected 60 day mark, and something he mentioned was the fact that the low temperature shock may have sent the clutch into a state of diapause.  I suspect he is correct, but also that the lower incubation temperature provided by the dam helped to drag out the whole process. 

The time point of the temperature shock also seemed to be key, because in the first clutch (which had been laid 2 days earlier than the 2nd clutch), I had a 110% hatch rate (that's not a typo; 11 healthy babies out of 10 eggs, 0 slugs).  From the second clutch however, there were 7 fertile eggs; 2 were deformed and could not hatch on their own, and 5 hatched healthy and whole... the last one received some help for the sake of my nerves.  I am convinced the deformities were due to the timing of the temperature shock, because it was obvious that the deformities occurred while the neural tube was forming.  Further, one of the 5 babies that hatched from the 2nd clutch failed to thrive. 

This is not to say one way or another that a longer incubation time was responsible for that (most likely, the worst damage was done in the temperature shock).  If your clutch did not have to endure any significant temperature shock, I would guess they are doing fine.  I would ask if this is the Savu female's first clutch?  My second clutch, the one that had some problems, was the first clutch for that female; the first clutch that did so well was the 3rd clutch for that female.  I do suspect that parity (the number of clutches the female has produced) has an impact on maternal behavior.

I've actually been meaning to write a blog about all of these observations, but life has been far too hectic.

Cheers  :)
 
Author Comment 5/14/2010 4:04:07 AM

PythonHouse

Thanks for your comments Rebecca.  This is her first clutch.  It was actually an accidental mating - you can see in the pic that I have up of her, she has a lot of damage to her nose.  When they were little, they were very nice, tame snakes.  As they grew older they became very highly strung, nasty creatures, despite regular handling!!!  (This goes completely against all our other snakes - which have actually calmed down considerably - some were VERY wild caught rescues).  Anyway, we placed them in a tank (previously in a stacked cage - glass front, mesh sides) with deep wood shaving bedding, their hide boxes and covered half of the tank with a towel.  They were together while I purchased another tank and got that one set up.  They were together for about 1 month.  When we took out the male, I noticed that one of them had thrown up a mouse the night before (yuk).  Not being sure which one it was, we kept a close eye on them.  The male was eating well, but the female refused food.  After another few weeks, I was looking at the female, and she was HUGE.  I thought that she may have had a stomach problem, or intestinal problem and it was her that regurgitated the mouse.  Left her alone, but put a nesting box in "just in case" - and then she laid.

The eggs are now in the incubator.  I was starting to panic when I read about the drowned neonates, as one of my GTP clutches did that a couple of months ago (fully formed babies that didnt hatch - this was a big disapointment as the father was Canary and the mom Hi Yellow) 

Here's a photo of the Savu Clutch <a href="http://www.sea-ex.com/fishphotos/snakes.htm"> Savu Clutch of Eggs</a>

And her nose has cleared up completely!

 
Assisted Answer 5/19/2010 10:23:04 AM

WhiteHillReptile

Sorry, I've been AFK for a few days and was curious as to what the results were on this and if there were any updates. 72 and counting??

Rebecca, I guess it did sound like I was saying 60 days was the set in stone time, but it wasn’t meant to sound like that. I agree that there are many variables that can affect hatch time, but 60 days tends to be the general rule of thumb for a reason. You're right, just like in humans there is variation on that 9 months, but also like in humans if there is too much deviation from that time, there is cause for concern for MANY reasons because that is the accepted standard when things are going well. Like in your clutch that went 72 days, that’s is probably one of the longer hatch times I have ever heard of being successful, but there were issues which, like you said, caused it to go that long that deviated from the norm and resulted in less than stellar results. On the 61 day clutch that is pretty much spot on the standard and the hatch and survivability rate were of the norm as well. I have had all kinds of deviation within my own clutches with pythons, the shortest was 54 days to first pipped (this was before I started double checking thermostats and cooked them .8 degrees too high). The longest I ever had was 63 and I manually pipped them on that date. 8 of the 10 were dead in the egg fully formed with yolk absorbed and the other two were fine but died about 8 meals in for unknown reasons (my guess was that something was wrong and nature has a way of deciding who should and shouldn’t hatch regardless of our will).  

Also I agree that experience has a lot to do with how well a female will brood her eggs, but coming off of them and shedding as well as just cruising is pretty strange. I have only use MI once and will probably never do it again if I have other options. Don’t get me wrong, it was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen happen, but I prefer to take the strain off the girls and have a little more control over the process. 

This was also an "unintentional" breeding which can cause things to be screwy as well.  Certain conditioning regimins (temp, food, etc...) which I believe hold a lot of sway on how well/poor a female will shell eggs could have been missed causing her to over shell them. There have also been other discussions about eggs with "snowflakes" (over calcification spots) on them and the percentage of those clutches that hatch normally (not manually pipped) and why these spots are on there are believed to be environmental.  This is all speculation, and is probably more in depth than really needed, but there is something to be said about environmental factors prior to ovulation that affect female fecundity.

starting to ramble....

FWIW
Tre'

 

 
Author Comment 5/25/2010 10:08:48 AM

PythonHouse
They are here!  4 have just hatched out completely, 2 are poking their heads out and 1 is a question.  Photos are to be added shortly!  So this is EXACTLY 11 weeks (77 days)  They are just gorgeous.  I will document this as the parents were wild caught animals. Thanks for all your comments and help!
 
Member Comment 5/25/2010 10:12:43 AM

Sonja K. Reptiles
Congrats!! That is awesome - especially since I believe from wild caught parents is awfully rare!
 
Member Comment 1/24/2011 7:18:44 AM

abi21491

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