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Q:
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Rescue Regurge
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In Relation To:
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Alright... so unfortunately, regurge isn't unheard of in my snake family, both with the breeders and the rescues. Izzy, one of my rescues, has been doing great. He's finally over his skin infection, he's begun eating more regularly, and appeared to have started to turn the corner enough that I found him a new home. He's scheduled to go to his new owner on the 18th of this month. I had no reason to believe that this would be too soon, until this morning. He ate a f/t jumbo rat last Thursday, and one the week before. He's really underweight still, so the jumbos left a lump, despite the fact that the snake is 92+ inches (he's a big boy :) So this morning, I woke up to this absolutely disgusting smell. Did the snake room check, first thinking that the aspen in one of the breeding groups had gotten wet, and that was the smell. Cleaned it up, still smelled foul. Found what appeared to be a very large, disgusting, hairy defecation in Izzy's cage. Went to clean it, and realized that it was the jumbo rat he ate 4 days ago, as well as with a great deal of bile. The rat was still rat like, in that it was barely digested, but clearly rotted. I have every intention of calling my vet tomorrow, but was wondering if anyone else had dealt with this kind of thing before? How often until I offer food again? (feeding day is Thursday). Also, is it still morally acceptable to adopt out a snake that so recently regurged? (I'd tell Sean about the regurge regardless). Thanks guys
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Accepted Answer
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10/7/2008 9:23:42 AM
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Kaiyudsai
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could be stress...could be temps...... could be something more serious......I would feed it a small meal next time....but I'd wait a week or so first....regurge dehydrates the animal....so get it's strength back up first... A snake that big should have no problem going a little while without eating......... I've had more probs with regurge in boas than any other snake.... Most often it's a stress related issue....... As far as adopting it out....As long as you're honest I don't see the prob....but moving him again will stress him... I would say if you were to adopt him out...don't feed him until he has been moved and had a week or so to get acclimated...Make sure the new owner doesn't handle their new snake........and have them feed it a small rat for the next meal.........Hope that helps
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Assisted Answer
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10/7/2008 9:50:03 AM
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jbt123
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Wait TWO WEEKS before attempting to feed again. Soak it every other day so it drinks more water to get it's digestive juices going again. Small meals until he starts digesting normally again. If in two weeks he regurges a smaller meal, then I'd call a vet and see what's up. I personally would keep him until he starts acting normal again before adopting him out: the last thing you want to happen is the adoptee to return him to you because he is sick. Best thing for Izzy is tlc from you until he gets better.:) Don't worry: I'm sure he'll be fine.
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Assisted Answer
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10/7/2008 9:52:34 AM
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aaron
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I believe that Crypto has a 3 day regurge period (as I'm sure a lot of other things, but....)
If the animal is going to a person who doesn't have anything else, that's one thing, but if they have something else, I would isolate the animal for a long period of time, just in case it is disease related. The emaciation and the regurge doesn't bode well, it could just be a shock to the system, if the food is leaving a lump, you should make the meals smaller.
Regardless, be transparent with the new owner (which you obviously are by posting this), and work with them on a plan. The rescue thing can be very scary, because you don't know what you're getting. It's great to save animals, but there comes a point where you're taking a major risk with your own collection.
And Katie, major, MAJOR props for posting this. The thing I love about this community is how open a lot of people are.
I'm continually impressed with the caliber of people here.
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Member Comment
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10/7/2008 1:36:08 PM
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dalvers63
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Whenever I hear of a boa that regurged, especially if it has happened more than once, I also have to suspect some disease. Usually this leads me to the worst (which is why I don't keep boas - I stress out too much!) and think IBD.
I'd wait at least two weeks to feed him again, if not 3 to give his system a chance to get back to normal. When you do feed, him feed a small meal and see how he does. If he can't keep it down again, I'd seriously consider some tests to rule out IBD/Crypto and other nasty things.
Good luck with him!
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Author Comment
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10/7/2008 1:42:30 PM
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Katie M
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Crypto is scary enough, but 'm pretty confident it isn't IBD, as he isn't exhibiting any other signs of illness. This is his first regurge for me, although he did have several refused meals (tracking is missing a few weeks from back when I moved). The guy who is taking has one other Red Tail, so I'll make sure to let him know that this is potentially something contagious, and let him decide how long he wants to wait until he takes Izzy home. In the meantime, I suppose it's time to call Dr. Maas....
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Member Comment
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10/7/2008 2:05:48 PM
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dalvers63
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Like I said, I'm paranoid when it comes to nasty diseases so I'll always jump to the worst conclusion. 95% of the time, it's a one time issue and nothing is wrong :-)
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Author Comment
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10/7/2008 2:06:51 PM
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Katie M
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Here's hoping for that one time thing... :)
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Assisted Answer
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10/7/2008 7:06:22 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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Like I said earlier........... boas are more prone to regurge than any other species I've worked with...........I'd be more concerned with a regurgitating retic than a boa........they get stressed easily....esp BCC's
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Author Comment
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10/7/2008 11:57:52 PM
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Katie M
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Thanks guys :) I did speak to my vet today, and he thinks that I just fed Izzy too much too fast, so he was on the same page with you guys. He'll be offered another, much smaller meal in about a week and a half, and if he keeps it down, we're good. I'll probably bring Izzy in for a weight check and to be on the safe side before than anyway, but it sounds that Dr. Maas is confident that I pushed the kid a bit too hard. We'll see :)
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Assisted Answer
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10/8/2008 9:20:07 PM
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MegF
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I would also wait at least 2 weeks, offer a much smaller than usual sized food item. Wait another week at least...better 10 days...offer another very small item. I have used grapefruit seed extract in the water to help rebuild the acid levels in the stomach (2-3 drops per 8 oz. of water). I use nutribac as well once I start feeding, but you'll need to go back to plain water when you do as GSE is a natural anti-biotic and will kill the probiotics in the Nutribac. I never feed boas an item larger than the largest part of their bodies and I usually err on the small side.
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Author Comment
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10/8/2008 9:27:12 PM
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Katie M
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Meg, would you recommend pro-biotics as well? I hadn't thought about that... I'll go look into the grapefruit extract tomorrow, and work on helping the kid out. He seems to be doing his snakey things, basking for part of the day in his hot spot, and than back to the cool spot for night time. So, yeah... he's been getting soaks in the bath tub too, which he's always enjoyed :)
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Member Comment
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10/8/2008 9:42:17 PM
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MegF
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I would for at least a few feedings. Nutribac (which is a pro-biotic) can be purchased for relatively cheap on Kathy Love's site at www.cornutopia.com I just powder the butt of the mouse or rat before feeding. I don't use it for every feeding. I just use it for rehabbing and not at every meal. You can also add Nutribac to the water if you want, but as I said before, you can't use the grapefruit seed extract with it. I do like the GSE as it is an antibiotic as well as a good way to rebuild acid. Hope he recovers quickly for you. I would take it very slow to avoid further incidences of regurge that could become chronic. Boas and pythons in general have relatively slow metabolisms anyway and I usually feed them smaller meals, less often. They do just fine.
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Member Comment
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10/9/2008 9:52:45 AM
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jbt123
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Grapefruit extract? Where would I get some of this stuff? I'd love to have it on hand if needed.:) So...with the nutribac...you dont recommend using both at the same time (eg: GSE in the water and NB on the food) or do you mean both mixed in the water at the same time?
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Assisted Answer
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10/9/2008 9:15:44 PM
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MegF
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Most healthfood stores carry Grapefruit seed extract and you can also get it online. I do not use both at the same time in any capacity. The GSE will kill any live cultures as it is a natural antibiotic. Use the gse in the water until the two weeks have passed. Then go back to regular water and use the nutribac on the first small feeder item you feed. I also recommend cutting slits in the back of the mouse or rat to aid in digestion. The back is the toughest part of the rodent and some informal testing show that animals that are fed with the mouse or rat slit, grow faster than ones that aren't.
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Author Comment
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10/12/2008 4:02:27 PM
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Katie M
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So, the new owner really wanted Izzy, regardless of the information I shared with him from here, and the recommendations of the vet. In fact, he spoke with his vet, and was prepared to reintroduce food slowly, and even had an appointment set up for Tuesdays for Izzy. That said, as of yesterday afternoon, Izzy was acting great - really active, alert, etc. Izzy went home with his new owner, and within 3 hours, I had a phone call saying Izzy was barely breathing, and by the time I got to him, he was dead. Izzy's body is at the vet clinic right now, and I'm anxiously awaiting necropsy results... really didn't see this coming so fast
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Member Comment
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10/12/2008 4:18:15 PM
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jbt123
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That's terrible! Please let us know the necropsy results...that is very concerning.
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Author Comment
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10/12/2008 10:58:33 PM
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Katie M
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Okay, well, given that the necropsy was performed at no cost by my veterinarian, there aren't any conclusive diagnosis' yet. What she found was that he was very anemic, and it appeared to be caused by severe ulcerations in his stomach. She hypothesized that the second rat expanded his tummy a bit to much, causing the uclers to bleed, and him to go anemic to the point of oxygenation problems. Add to that, she suspects he was much older than the 6-8 I was told, more likely 15-20, and he had a ton of fluid around his heart. She took histopaths of the stomach lining to stain and look at under the scope tomorrow (as it is Sunday, afterall). She also said his liver looked slightly "unhappy," so she took biopsies of that as well. Plan will be that if she finds nothing obvious on the stomach slides, we'll send off the liver biopsies and pray that it isn't the worst. She's not thinking it's IBD, but it's worth the money to be reassured. I'll keep everyone posted
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Author Comment
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10/14/2008 1:20:04 AM
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Katie M
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Okay, so good news in a crappy situation. The vet is willing to say with nearly 100% certainty that this kid died of a parasite problem in his tummy, which put strain on his old man heart and caused heart failure. I wormed Izzy when I first got him, but apparently, I wasn't aggressive enough. Everyone will be treated for parasites over the next few weeks, in case someone else picked something up (although Ioften brag about my husbandry :) To be on the safe side, I'm paying the 85 dollars to send the liver biopsies off to the lab for IBD testing, although given his weight loss, she suspects the liver looked uphappy because of fatty liver disease from his liver having to process his weight loss. Chance of IBD in her mind is slim to none, but I'm not willing take any chances. I'm devestated about Izzy's death, and I think I'll be much more aggressive with worming every rescue or snake from an unknown history (i.e. not a breeder, etc.) Thank you guys all so much, and I'm not sure how to split these points... that said, I'm not closing the blog until you guys all get to see the "IBD FREE" post... keep all fingers and toes crossed please!
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Author Comment
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10/15/2008 6:27:52 PM
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Katie M
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NOT IBD NOT IBD NOT IBD!!!! Can I say that, although the chances were slim it was IBD, it took hearing the vet to say that it WASN'T IBD for me to breathe a sigh of relief?!?!?!? We're still in the process of isolating the organism that killed Izzy, and will act appropriately when that's unveiled, but the vet is 100% confident that even had I caught this in the first week I had Izzy, he was too far gone. She's thinking it's probably not contagious, but in the off chance it is, she's already started a plan of attack for the rest of my kids... can I just do an IBD free dance a few more times?!?!?!?!
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Member Comment
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10/15/2008 6:43:26 PM
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Author Comment
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10/15/2008 6:46:09 PM
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Katie M
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I know!! RIGHT?!?! Phew... I learned my lessen about quarantining too - I wasn't keeping kids separated long enough. My rule was 2 months without any issues, longer if issues were noted. That's been bumped to 6 months!!!
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