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Q:
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White's Tree Frogs
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I've had two White's Tree Frogs for about a month now, and I don't think they are eating enough. I've been feeding them outside the enclosure so I can monitor how many crickets they eat, but that seems to stress them out, and now they don't want to do it that way.
I have half of the bottom of the enclosure paper towel substrate, the other half spaghnum moss. It is a tall enclosure, so they can climb, and they do. There are plenty of fake plants for cover, a large piece of cork bark, and a shallow water bowl that is changed daily.
My concern about feeding is the enclosure is that I am not going to see who eats what, and I'm not sure if I should take the moss out so they don't ingest it.
The frogs are quite active at night, and usually wake me up with the sounds they make.
Any suggestions on the feeding/substrate would be appreciated.
Kim
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Assisted Answer
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10/8/2008 8:19:09 PM
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neffrodite
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I would hesitate feeding if you are using moss. I had a White's until June of this year.
He used to get the crickets right on with his tongue and if he got moss in his mouth he would use his little hands to brush it out. So I thought he was OK feeding this way.
But... when he stopped eating and stopped climbing I took him to the vet and found out he had a serious infection probably due to impaction.
We had him on an anti-inflamatory, antibiotic and pain killer for a week but he got worse.
I had them do the X-Ray with a contrast and sure enough, the poor guy had impaction - really bad.
I had to make the really difficult decision to have him euthanized.
Good luck with yours! White's are adorable!
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Member Comment
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10/8/2008 10:44:31 PM
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Riain
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I agree spaghnum moss can get caught up inside the intestines very easily.
I'd switch to expanded coco fiber, like eco earth.
I use it in most of my tanks, and it works great.
It also works great for keeping in humidity, and you can mix in some organic potting soil and plant live plants right in the substrate.
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Assisted Answer
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10/9/2008 8:45:01 AM
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Crested Crazy
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I would switch the substrate to plain paper towel. This is what mine are on and both are doing fine.
This way you can feed them in their enclosure if you wish, but if you want to keep monitoring their eating, which is a good idea, try a darker container....like a rubbermaid that isn't see through and ensure to put the lid on and leave them for about 15 minutes, I had to do this for several months with my littler guy cause the bigger one was getting to the crickets first :)
There is also a mela dip you can use if you suspect illness... let me know if you need the recipe.
Jenna
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Member Comment
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10/9/2008 11:44:56 AM
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dsmalex97
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I am using the moss too and realizing it a big probelm for them now. I actually use bot he dirt and the moss mixed. I figured the moss would help aid in retaining moisture, but I am realziing that its just getting in the way of them eating. Deffinately switch overto the coco fiber/eco-earth thats what I'm doing.
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Assisted Answer
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10/9/2008 1:42:23 PM
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Shawn
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I have used eco earth for my whites since I got him 6 years ago and have had no problems. As for feeding, I just put in a few dozen crickets a week and they both eat their share. I do monitor their thickness and if one gets skinnier I make sure he gets a few extras either by shooing crickets to them or handfeeding. Im not sure if yours are tame enough to eat from your hand but its worth a try.
Good luck!
Shawn
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Accepted Answer
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10/10/2008 12:31:37 AM
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Joseph Jenkins
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I am BIG into frogs, I currently have 10, and all but 1 are on moss, including a blue phase White's Treefrog. I have never had problems with it, I much prefer it to the messy eco-earth type beddings, which can stick to the frogs and irritate them, although paper towels are the safest route, it is a little more time consuming to do and it doesn't look as good. Of course, I always watch them feed to make sure they are all eating without problems. I feed all my frogs inside their containers. You always need to be careful with frogs, especially Dumpies(white's treefrogs), they have tendencies to eat their smaller friends for snacks.
I believe that feeding outside the enclosure causes unneeded stress. Are they hunting or are they eating from hand/tongs? If they are hunting, for their prey, then I would just toss some crickets in and watch them eat, to make sure they are both eating, and its funner. If they are eating from hand/tongs, I would still feed them in the container.
How big are your frogs?
How many crickets are they eating a week?
Remember, Dumpies are a chubby built frog, a good indication of a healthy ADULT Dumpy is one that has fat folds covering around 1/4 to 1/3 of their ears, More than halfway is probly fat, and none at all is probly skinny.
Hope I helped
Good Luck, feel free to message me
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Member Comment
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10/11/2008 4:45:19 AM
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Riain
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Just a warning joseph, I'd be very careful feeding the frogs on moss, I know more then one person who has lost a frog to it.
While eco earth may look messier, most frogs really dont seem bothered by it.
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Member Comment
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10/11/2008 4:37:52 PM
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Joseph Jenkins
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Like i said, i have been dealing with frogs for a while, moss can be hazardous if u don't keep an eye on them, especially when they are little, but it is my personal preference. Moss is also less prone to fungus growth because it is slightly acidic, this may also help to prevent skin problems with your frogs. Eco-earth is not the only good substrate for frogs.
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Member Comment
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10/11/2008 10:58:08 PM
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Riain
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If you have to say something "can be hazardous if u don't keep an eye on them"
your admiting its potentialy hazardous.
Why take any chances?
And while eco earth may not be the only good substrate for frogs, its among the best.
I have never had a problem with fungus on eco earth, its shredded cocnut fiber, and eco earth just so happens to be cut to the smallest grain of all the types of coco fiber substrate.
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Member Comment
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10/12/2008 10:33:02 AM
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Joseph Jenkins
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I said it can be hazardous IF you don't keep an eye on your frog, and if you aren't keeping a watchful eye on your frog then u don't even need to own one.
And Riain, the reason you haven't had problems with eco-earth growing fungus is because you currently don't even have any frogs, so you haven't had to keep the constant high humidity and misting needed for frogs on eco-earth which all to often ends in fungus. I know because i have had to care for MANY turantulas and they need a constant humidity which means thier cages end up getting cleaned often because of fungus. Never-the-less, eco-earth is my prefered bedding for tuantulas. I think u need to understand that their is more than 1 good way of doing things, and we are here to help Kim with her frogs and give her options, but if you want to keep arguing, then feel free.
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Member Comment
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10/12/2008 10:37:24 PM
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NCherper
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Back when I had a more diverse collection, I had a white's that I lost due to impaction directly related to the sphangum moss substrate in its enclosure. After that point I haven't used it in any of my cages, regardless of species. I think the fact that there are several documented (amongst the iherp community) cases of impaction being caused by moss is enough to make someone want to steer clear of it. I currently use eco-earth as a component of a bio-active substrate in one of my GTP's cages and it has been problem free. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in the husbandry of a frog.
While I agree there are several substrates that could work wonderfully, I wouldn't be too keen on using one that I know causes impaction, and would require a more diligent eye than other options.
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Member Comment
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10/13/2008 1:10:57 PM
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Riain
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Well, I had a nice long response written, But accidently hit the refresh button, and don't really feel like rewriting it all...
Jospeh, I don't currently have frogs, but still have animals that need elevated humidity levels, and have kept frogs outside my home (both at work and elsewhere)
With proper humdity and venilation fungus should not be a problem.
(unless i'm mistaken white's should be kept at about 70% with venilation?)
I understand there are other SAFE options for frog substrates, moss is not what i'd call safe, do some research and there is factual evidence that supports this.
and yes, I will argue this point, because "we are here to help Kim with her frogs"
but other people will see this, and if they use this information to care for there own pets, they should see all sides of the argument.
If someone chooses to endanger their animals, thats their call, there is not much else I can do about it, but when they pass that along to others, I'm not going to sit by and remain silent.
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Member Comment
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10/13/2008 6:05:40 PM
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Joseph Jenkins
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Even with proper ventilation, eco-earth that is kept moist form fungus. A frog cage that doesn't have moist substrate is not humid enough.
Connect the dots.
You are right about arguing, as long as its productive.
I could say the exact same thing about eco-earth engangering people's pets because of it being a fungus magnet.
Also, anyone who uses eco-earth knows that it also has long strands from the coconut husk which could, in theory, impact your pet.
Note: Frogs can become sick and not eat for many reasons(their moist skin can harbor and be effected by many disease causing germs), naturally impaction is first to blame, even though it is often not the cause of death.
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Member Comment
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10/13/2008 9:55:44 PM
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Riain
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I've maintained multiple tanks with eco earth all hitting anywhere from 50% to 99% depending on the animal, And I have not once had a problem with fungus.
As for the long strands, eco earth actualy has signifigantly less of them then the other expanded coco fiber substrates out there (though there is one new brand i've yet to try)
eco earth is comprised of shredded coconut husk, which is both organic, and in small quantities can be safely digested and/or passed. (though there is still a small risk of physical impaction occuring, it still remains one of the safest particulate substrates available)
Frogs Can become sick for many different reasons, cleanliness is very important for their health, due in large part of course to their permeable skin.
but that impaction does occur, and when necropsies are performed, a majority of those impactions are from moss.
Joseph, I encourage you to do a bit of outside research on this, There are alternatives to both moss and coco fiber substrates,
If your interested I can send you a few links to places that you can find very creative solutions for this, many that would both look great, be very safe, and help maintain humidity.
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Member Comment
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10/13/2008 11:57:04 PM
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Joseph Jenkins
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I agree, moss may cause more impactions than other substrates, but that changes nothing. It can be easily prevented with a watchful eye.
I still am sticking with moss as my prefered substrate.
You forget, I volunteer all my free time at a small reptile store, I've looked into nearly everything as far as substrates and setups for herps.
Some setups are really cool, I've got My green tree frogs in a waterfall setup. They say the happiest herper is one who goes all out on their setups.
The links would be great though for everyone to see, since this is what this is about.
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Member Comment
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10/14/2008 1:31:33 AM
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Riain
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One of the best looking alternatives is a Live Moss, you grow it right over organic potting soil.
The key here is to pull out any dead sections that occur.
You can usualy find a few types: http://www.blackjungle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BJTS&Category_Code=FM
or
http://mbreptiles.com/products.php?category=61
You can usualy find it on ebay aswell: http://cgi.ebay.com/%231--Live-Living-Bonsai-Moss-Spore-Groundcover-Terrarium_W0QQitemZ260294802434QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081002?IMSfp=TL081002104003r5895
http://www.herpcenter.com/vivariums/19927-green-tree-frog-vivarium.html
False bottoms are another option, You layer 1"-2" of hydroton LECA balls for drainage, Place fine mesh screen to fit, then layer your choice of substrates on that (personaly, I'd use a even mix of organic potting soil and eco earth)
http://www.herpcenter.com/general-construction/19330-arboreal-tank-build-log.html
Another option i'm not sold on, but i've seen done sucessfuly with tree frogs, Is using large river rock, with a in the tank filter buried in the rocks, You fill water in, high enough to cover the filter intake, but not higher then the top of the rocks themselves.
Like another type of false bottom, but personaly I think this requires quite a bit of maintanence to keep clean enough for amphibians. (however when the tank is heated it works wonders for humidity)
there are a few more, but those are all just ideas to get everyone thinking.
One more thing to keep in mind joseph, Just because you watch the frogs eat, does'nt mean they may not ever ingest any moss.
You may even see it happen, but they can be quick when they want, chances are it would be "down the hatch" before you could get to it.
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Member Comment
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10/14/2008 5:19:52 PM
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Joseph Jenkins
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I know.
Thanks for the posts
In conclusion I prefer moss, but paper towels and eco-earth are also good substrates. But no matter what is used, you should always keep an eye on your pet during feeding times.
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Member Comment
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10/14/2008 9:55:33 PM
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Riain
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jospeh as you do prefer moss, you may have luck feeding your frogs in a large bucket, it would seriously lower the risks involved keeping the frogs on the moss.
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 10:04:08 AM
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Joseph Jenkins
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For the record, i was looking around at different frog breeders, i looked at Under The Canopy one of the most reputable breeders in the US, and they recomend and use sphagnum, and i wasn't able to find anyone who said it shouldn't be used.
If the Pro's recomend it, then i'm stickin with it.
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Member Comment
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11/29/2008 11:03:29 PM
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Riain
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To each there own, but regardless, I have seen moss pulled from the intestines of a disected frog, Cause of death was impaction..
To anyone who wants to use moss with frogs, do so carefully, and know many advise against it.
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Member Comment
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10/4/2010 2:21:56 PM
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dalvers63
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