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baby corns regurging

Posted By:

Hannebuddika

In Relation To:

Dumdum [CS-HR-08-09]

Hey Folks,
We have serveral baby corns ranging from 5grams to 12 grams and all eat f/t mice pinkies extra small. They all eat well but we've had a few regurge problems. I already lost the smallest (4g) after two regurge episodes.
Presently all but one corn is housed in pairs in tupperware on aspen bedding with water available.  There is no heat source per tub. They are in the reptile room which maintains an ambient temperature above 80 degrees F.
This weekend the plan is to get some tubs and seperate the corns so that each are housed alone. We are saving up for a rack system but for right now this is how the housing is going to be.

Any ideas on how I can make this a better situation in the meantime and keep my babies from regurging??? I really don't want to lose another one.


Points:	100
Topics:	Feeding , Regurge
Species:	Other Colubrids > Other Colubrids > Elaphe guttata guttata
Administrative:	Show/Hide

Member Comment

11/15/2008 2:44:07 PM

FyreFocks

Separating them is a start. With babies that small, i prefer to keep them on paper towels so i can closely monitor their defecation and watch for regurge. As for heating, i suppose you could move the tubs around the room, placing them closer to heat sources; lights, UTHs, direct sunlight from a window, heating vents (if you have the heat on in your place). Anything to get them closer to warmth.

Member Comment

11/15/2008 5:24:23 PM

jbt123

To be perfectly honest, snakes like a variation of temperatures, except very few species (such as rubber boas who like it room temp or lower all the time).

I think it might just not be warm enough, or it might be TOO warm, believe it or not. My rosy boas will regurge of the ambient temps in the room get 80 degrees or more at times. Perhaps they should be given the option of having a cooler side (no higher than 78) and a warmer side of about 85-88 degrees. That might help them out.:)

Member Comment

11/15/2008 5:27:06 PM

aalomon

I would add at least two hides per container while they are being housed together. Also, do you have one of those electric heating pads you use on your back around? You can line up the containers on it (no more than 1/2 the container on the pad though). Dont use any setting higher than medium.

Assisted Answer

11/15/2008 7:14:44 PM

MegF

I hope you don't have something that is spreading thru your collection. The fact that you have more than one animal regurging is not a good sign. I've had two babies out of all my clutches that regurged and they were both "problem children". I had a hard time getting them started eating, you couldn't feed them in blue (or they regurged) and basically, any husbandry thing that was ever mentioned had to be followed to the letter. Basically, they read Kathy Love's book and lived by it. I gave them to a teacher for her classroom with the promise not to breed them...EVER! There either is disease (crypto comes to mind) or a husbandry factor-of which stress from co-habitating can be one...that is causing all these regurges. I might also add that every case of cannabilism I've ever seen in cornsnakes was in hatchlings eating each other...another good reason to separate. Although your room's ambient temp may be 80, where the tubs are might be much lower. I keep mine in racks with heat tape maintaining an area of 82. The front of the tub that's away from the heat is lower. Have you actually checked the tubs to see what the tubs temps are?

Member Comment

11/15/2008 7:51:01 PM

Mongrel Kitty

Definitly TOO WARM!! Get them cooler.
And you have to wait a while after they regurge before feeding again. The babies need to build up more digestive fluids before they are able to digest food again. If you feed them too quickly after they regurge, they're just going to do it again. And deflinitly get them seperated.

Member Comment

11/15/2008 8:20:29 PM

MegF

80 is NOT too warm. A warm side of 82-85 is recommended. It's entirely possible that's the temps are too low. The advice about waiting is good though. At least 10 days is recommended before attempting to feed a smaller than usual item. Then wait another 7 days and again feed a small item. I feed a smaller than normal item at least 4 times before going back to what they were eating before.

Member Comment

11/15/2008 9:09:01 PM

Sonja K. Reptiles

I know you said you have the extra small pinkies - and I would think that would be a good size, but maybe try waiting some time from the regurge like others recommended, and then only feed part of the pinky for a smaller meal, and then work back up.

Member Comment

11/16/2008 3:09:56 PM

Joseph Jenkins

Just wanted to add a small note with this thread for any less experienced herper:

Note: The reason you wait a week after a regurge is so that the snake can regain the stomach acids lost in the regurge.

Author Comment

11/17/2008 11:13:49 AM

Hannebuddika

I'm starting to believe its a heat issue. One of our young balls regurged as well and he's in a similar caging situation temporarily although by himself. As far as hides they have that. I think maybe investing in some extra heat tape even before we get the rack system is going to be necessary. Last night all the baby corns ate. I have an idea of which one regurged but I decieded to let him eat since it's been about a week anyways. Each one of them sat in some higher temps for awhile after eating before being put back into their tubs. The ball did not get food.
Our tub contact fell through but I'm sure I can find some heat tape tonight.
I'm going to keep this open in the meantime for awhile just to make sure this is the issue. Once I get things set up and another feeding or two goes by without problems than I can breath easy.

Accepted Answer

11/18/2008 10:00:42 AM

Saffleur

Cohabitation is never good with corns. It stresses them out. So getting more tubs and splitting them up is definitely a step in the right direction.

As for the heat...80 is NOT too hot. 80 is midlevel of what they like. If it is going above 85 then you'll need to lower the temprature. They like a gradient from 75 on the cool side to 85 on the hot side.

What procedures are you taking as far as their regurging recovery?

If not doing anything I would suggest following Kathy Love's regurge procedures.

FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:

I suspect your problem is probably not bad mice, but about handling too soon, feeding too soon or too large of a meal, a stomach "bug", or improper temps. If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info:
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn%20Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Please follow my care sheet for the first month or so when starting with new acquisitions (posted on my website for the first month's care of new corns).. The first month is crucial in getting the baby established. It is worth a little extra "coddling" for the first month in order to have a trouble free pet for the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

Member Comment

9/28/2010 6:37:11 PM

dalvers63

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