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Q:
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BCC, BCI, need help with Boa Species!
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Hello Boa Crazies,
I keep getting requests for changes/adds to the boa species database. And would like to resolve it once and for all... Now, mind you, a lot of them have been filed already, so ... well, keep that in mind.
I'd like this to be a continuing discussion until we can get a consensus of what to do.
Here is the grouping for boas in the species gallery:
www.iherp.com/Reptiles/Species/Overview.aspx
(opens in new window)
Common Red Tail is BCC, which I've been told is wrong. Because there are 208 in there, well, that needs to be addressed... I don't know the species very well, or more appropriately, I guess the "locals" and what makes a Crawl Cay different than a Tarahumara Mountain. Not that I need to, and maybe everything is right in there, but I want to make sure this is dead on, so any time I get a request for a boa, I can say "it's already in there"...
Thanks all!
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 11:10:17 AM
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Sparkle
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Very cool! Thanks Aaron! (Oh, any plans to consolidate the Carpet Python - West Papua and Carpet Python - Irian Jaya?)
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 2:38:16 PM
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Sonja K. Reptiles
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Well, until I came to this site, I had never heard of Bci being referred to as a "Common Northern Boa" - Not that it's incorrect - I think it's because only Bci are found North of South America - or something like that - not that there aren't some Bci in Northern South America : ). More so, I have seen Bci referred to as "Common Boa Constrictors" or "Columbian Boas". These are the most common in the pet trade, by all means! - Columbians are also the largest Bci) I guess maybe different people call things by different names, so... : )
I'm sure the majority of the confusion comes in due to one example being refered to by multiple names. And a lot of that can be traced to "market" appeal - some seem to sell better than others. (i.e."Common" doesn't sound nearly as appealing as "Red-Tail", does it??!)
So, Aaron, I'm going to approach this from the standpoint of what I believe are some of the common names for the different scientific ones. Hopefully, this will be of help more so than scale counts and such. It is in no way a complete account, but like I said, it may help ; )
I believe the common names for Boa Constrictor Amarali are : Brazilian Short tail Boa, Short tailed boa, and Amaral's boa
Boa c. longicauda - common names include: Longtailed Boas, Tumbes Boas, and Peruvian Longtailed Boas
Boa constrictor sabogae - same as the Pearl Island boa - also called the Taboga Island Boa
Dwarf Boas - and these are all Bci - include:
Hog (Hogg) Islands, Caulker Cays or Cay Caulkers, Corn Island Boas - aka Isla de Maize Boas, Tarahumara Desert Boas - aka Sonoran Desert Boas or Dwarf Mexican Boas (Bci) - I believe Leopard Boas are a patteren morph of the Sonoran Desert Boas and the Tarahumara Mountain Boa is also a type of Sonoran. More dwarfs include the Costa Rican Boas, Honduran Fire Bellied Boas, Nicaraguan Boas, Central American Boas aka Mexican Boas, CanCun Boas, Panama Boas, El Salvador Boas - Blood Boas are of these, Ecuadorian,"Crawl Cay" and "Belize Boas" are the same - again, all are Bci
Bcc ( often referred to as "True- Red-Tailed Boas") include: Guyanan, Suriname, (North) Brazilian (not to be confused with the Brazilian Short-Tails which are B.c. amarili), Venezuelan, Trinidad, Peruvian (Iquitos & another locale?) Red-Tails
I think it may help a bit of confusion if "Columbian Boa Constrictor" / Bci was added and Columbian Red-Tailed Boa / Bci and Common Red-Tailed Boa brought up Bci. - just my opinion.
For the Bcc, I think having the choice of "Red-Tailed Boa/True Redtail" (adding "true red-tail right after it ) might help - flag the difference - people have become familiar with these being "different"
I know the whole Boa species naming bit can be quite confusing, because when it comes down to it, unless you are working in the field, and know "where" it is from, it can be hard to identify them, and there are so many Bci x Bcc crosses! Ugh!
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 3:22:20 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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Yeah I think when people see common red tail boa(bcc), they get confused and assume that is the same thing as what the pet shop trade refers to as red tails, which are just common bci's. 90% of the boas listed as bcc here are actually bci.
as far as BCC's, I would separate them into
Surinam bcc
Guyana bcc
venezuelan bcc
North brazilian bcc
Pacallpa/Iquitos peruvian bcc(formerly known as bc ortoni) which is very different than the Bc longicauda........
Hope that helps
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Author Comment
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11/26/2008 3:29:03 PM
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aaron
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So for the ones that are "misfiled" ... how to address that?
And let's say that I have no idea what a Common Red Tail is, I just bought one at the store. How would I tell if it's a BCI or BCC?
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 3:36:40 PM
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Sonja K. Reptiles
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Me again, LOL, thought I'd refer to some specifics, too, from the species gallery. : )
I'm not sure what definition was used for small vs. large boas, but:
El Salvadors, Craw Cay, and Hogg Island are dwarfs, so "small" ?
Guyana is just a Bcc locale, so just Bcc (True Redtail, etc.), same as Surinames, etc.
Calabar Burrowing Boa (formerly python)
Not sure if a Cuban Boa is actually a Rainbow Boa
The 2 animals listed as just "Rainbow Boas" are Guyana Rainbows - I don't believe this one has been described by taxonomists, so?
: ) Sonja
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 3:40:58 PM
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Sonja K. Reptiles
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I guess if in doubt, the odds would be extremely heavy that it is a Bci if you are getting it from a pet store. They are less expensive - the "morphs" are Bci,... usually a person has to seek out a Bcc - a "True-Redtail" so to say.
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 4:09:14 PM
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Sonja K. Reptiles
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Oops! That should have been "Crawl Cay", and Tarahumara Mountain Boas are also dwarfs.
As far as how to "fix" those that are already entered... off the top of my head, it may be easiest to change all of those in the Bcc category to Bci, and have the people who have the "True Red-Tails" (and they know if they do) go in and change their animals back to Bcc. (Just a thought...)
I also think it may be nice/better to have a category of Bcc, a category of Bci, a category of Arboreals, etc. rather than small and large????
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 5:37:33 PM
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Katie M
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I agree with bka mama - unless you paid specifically for a B.c.c., or have documentation stating it is a B.c.c., in all likelihood it is a B.c.i. I know that Kai can better describe the differences, as he did for me. The tail colors are generally still quite pretty, but not deep red like the B.c.c. - you can also go by head shape and scale count. As for the people that have there snakes mislabeled - I try and help where I can, because I didn't know either, but it's going to be a long process, especially for those that are CONVINCED that there Petco B.c.i. is something special like an Argentine, or along those lines
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 6:46:53 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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I agree with Sonja on the fix....... and a good rule of thumb ....if they bought it from a pet store there is a 99.9 % chance it was a bci........ Some people react quite violently when you tell them their bcc is really a bci.... I think you should change in on the sly..... the hardcore bcc pple will change their labels back to bcc.........true bcc s are quite difficult to source... Katie I actually saw some columbian bci's being sold as "Brazilian true red tails"for 125 dollars and got into an arguement with the manager when I tried to point out the false advertisement
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Member Comment
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11/26/2008 8:24:33 PM
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mack1time
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There are ways too do scale counts to find out Bcc or Bci.
However most pet trade boas are BCI and unless you specifically paid more and have papers of import for a Bcc, what you were told is a red tail is more then likely a BCI.
Every one of my morphs is BCI.
The only thing you can do is list the 6 Bcc as Kaiyudsai said and have BCi.
Where people place there snake is out of your hands, just like all the creamsicle and other hybreds that get tossed in the cornsnake section.
wish I could help more , but so many people are confused and will swear thet there Bci common boa is a true Red Tail
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Assisted Answer
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11/26/2008 10:17:06 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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THe funny thing is, in a couple years they will probably have the bcc s broken down into even more subspecies, which is probably necessary ... especially the Pal. and Iquitos type peruvians. Also if you compare even N brazilian bcc to say surinams..... they are quite different. N brazilians have traits of both suri/guyana bcc s and s brazilian amarali which makes sense because of the habitat overlap.
I think the bcc/bci is a easy line to draw..... but the locale differentiation can be quite difficult. The market standards are set by the few "expert" breeders. There is so much of a push to stamp a name on something, that I fear some breeders have set standards that aren't totally accurate. That along with false importation records, hiding true origins causes confusion.
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Assisted Answer
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11/27/2008 2:57:55 AM
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gfx
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Cuban boas (E.angulifer) are of the genus Epicrates and often grouped with "rainbow boas", though I dont think that's entirely correct . E.angulifer are one of the insular Epicrates along with Jamaican, Hatian, Bimini, etc. There are about 8-10 different insular Epicrates, though they're not common in collections.
Your listing for "Rainbow Boas" (Epicrates cenchria) contain 3 animals, all of which appear to be Guyanan Rainbow Boas. These can be listed as Epicrates cenchria crassus. Rumor has it that all of the E.cenchria are going to be lumped together under E. cenchria cenchria in the near future. I guess we'll see what happens, but for now they're still split.
If I were naming the group, I'd probably name it "Rainbow Boas and Insular Epicrates".
Lemme know when you get to the Asian ratsnakes, my Cave Dwelling Ratsnakes are still pissed off about being stuck under "Other Colubrids" with a bunch of garter snakes. Ok, maybe they're just pissed off because they're Asian ratsnakes... ;)
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Member Comment
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11/27/2008 3:42:55 PM
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balor223
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theres so many disputes over localities and such lol. like myself I believe the hog island boa should not be in the bci category it should have a sub species unto itself with the many characteristic differences it has. i.e size ,color changing(thats a biggie unto itself) locality.
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Member Comment
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11/28/2008 12:42:28 AM
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amarilrose
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I love the discussion here guys, and I have been trying to learn about this on my own for a few years. I agree with Kai, and I think the BCC's will be broken into several different subspecies in the future. I also personally think that one day all of the Boa constrictor subspecies will need to be reclassified -- there is SO MUCH locality-specific variation that we are seeing!
Aaron, for the misfiles, would it work to make a "General Boa Constrictor" file, and list them under Boa constrictor, leaving it up to their owners to reclassify their animals according to subspecies?
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Accepted Answer
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12/3/2008 3:59:51 PM
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Sonja K. Reptiles
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OK, here's what one Boa Crazy came up with - LOL
Here's just a suggestion:
I took the liberty of throwing together some info. for and adding some additional category suggestions to organize the Boa Species Gallery a bit better. (Now grant it, some of these animals do not appear in the gallery at this time.)
Let me know what you think. By no means do I believe this to be complete - I'm sure I've missed something! And, maybe it's way overboard!? But then again, I'm a Boa person, and I think one of those GTP persons said we're supposed to be a bit crazy. (LOL)
Please feel free to pick it apart. I thought this would at least work as a starting point for additional discussion. : )
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ARBOREAL / TREE BOAS
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COMMON NAME
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SPECIES
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Annulated Tree Boa /
Northern Annulated Tree Boa /
Ringed Tree Boa
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Corrallus annulatus
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Emerald Tree Boa /
Amazon Basin Emerald Tree Boa
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Corallus canninus
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Cook’s Tree Boa
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Corallus cookii
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Cropan’s Boa
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Corallus cropanii
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Amazon Tree Boa
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Corallus hortulanus
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Central American Tree Boa
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Corallus ruschenbergii
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Madagascar Tree Boa
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Sanzinia madagascariensis
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THE PACIFIC BOAS
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COMMON NAME
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SPECIES
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Pacific or New Guinea Tree Boa
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Candoia carinata carinata
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Pacific or Solomon Island Ground Boa
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Candoia carinata Paulson
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Solomon Island Tree Boa /
Bibron’s Keel-Scaled Boa
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Candoia bibroni australis
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Fiji Boa
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Candoia bibroni bibroni
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Viper Boa /
Papaun Ground Boa /
New Guinea Ground Boa
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Candoia aspera
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Palau Bevel-Nosed Boa
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Candoia supercilious
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COMMON NORTHERN BOA CONSTRICTOR
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COMMON NAME (By Locality)
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SPECIES
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Common Northern Boa /
Columbian Boa Constrictor /
Common Boa Constrictor /
Boa Constrictors of Unknown Locality
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BCI
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Hog / Hogg Island Boa
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BCI
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Caulker Cay Boa
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BCI
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Nicaraguan Boa
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BCI
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Costa Rican Boa
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BCI
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Crawl Cay Boa /
Belize Boa
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BCI
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Central American Boa /
Mexican Boa
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BCI
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Sonoran Desert Boa /
(Leopard Boas are a pattern morph)
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BCI
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Tarahumara Mountain Boa
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BCI
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Honduran Fire-Bellied Boa /
Bahia Island Boa
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BCI
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El Salvador Boa
(includes Blood Boas)
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BCI
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Corn Island Boa /
Isla de Maize Boa
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BCI
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Cancun Boa
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BCI
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Panamanian Boa
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BCI
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“TRUE RED-TAIL BOAS”
(COMMON RED-TAIL BOA)
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(BY LOCALITY)
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COMMON NAME
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SPECIES
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Suriname Red-Tail Boa
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BCC
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Guyana Red-Tail Boa
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BCC
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Peruvian Red-Tail Boa
(Iquitos or Pucallpa)
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BCC
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Venezuelan Red-Tail Boa
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BCC
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Brazilian Red-Tail Boa
(Northern or Southern/Belem)
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BCC
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Bolivian Red-Tail Boa
(Not to be confused with Bolivian
Short-Tails)
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BCC
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Trinidad Red-Tail Boa
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BCC
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OTHER SUBSPECIES OF BOA CONSTRICTOR
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COMMON NAME
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SPECIES
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Argentine Boa
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Boa constrictor occidentalis
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Long-Tailed Boa /
Tumbes Boa /
Peruvian Long-Tailed Boa /
Peruvian Black-Tail Boa
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Boa constrictor longicauda
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Pearl Island Boa /
Taboga Island Boa
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Boa constrictor sabogae
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Bolivian Short-Tail Boa /
Brazilian Short-Tail Boa /
Amaral’s Boa
Short-Tail Boa
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Boa constrictor amarali
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Dominican Clouded Boa
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Boa constrictor nebulosa
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St. Lucia Boa
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Boa constrictor orophias
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Orton’s Boa
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Boa constrictor ortonii
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Ecuadorian Boa /
“Black-bellied Boa”
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Boa constrictor melanogaster
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RAINBOW BOAS
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COMMON NAME
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SPECIES
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Argentine Rainbow Boa
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Epicrates cenchiria salvages
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Brazilian Rainbow Boa
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Epicrates cenchiria cenchiria
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Columbian Rainbow Boa
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Epicrates cenchiria maurus
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Guyana Rainbow Boa
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Epicrates cenchiria crassus (?)
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Peruvian Rainbow Boa
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Epicrates cenchiria gaigei
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Cuban Boa
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Epicrates angulifer
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OTHER BOAS
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COMMON NAME
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SPECIES
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Dumeril’s Boa
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Acrantophis dumerili
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Madagascar Ground Boa
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Acrantophis madagacariensis
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Green Anaconda
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Eunectes murinus
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Yellow Anaconda
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Eunectes notaeus
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ROSY, SAND, and RUBBER BOAS
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COMMON NAME
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SPECIES
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Calabar Burrowing Boa
(Formerly “Python)
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Charina reinhardt
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Rubber Boa
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Charina bottae
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Kenyan Sand Boa
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Gongylophis colubrinus
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Rough-Scaled Sand Boa
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Gongylophis conicus
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Saharan Sand Boa
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Gongylophis muelleri
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Arizona Rosy Boa
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Lichanura / Chirina trivirgata arizonae
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Baja Rosy Boa
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Lichanura / Chirina trivirgata saslowi
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Coastal Rosy Boa
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Lichanura / Charina trivirgata roseofusca
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Desert Rosy Boa
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Lichanura / Charina trivirgata gracia
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Mexican Rosy Boa
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Lichanura / Charina trivirgata trivirgata
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Rosy Boa (of unknown locale) (?)
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Lichanura / Charina trivirgata
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Member Comment
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12/4/2008 11:02:52 AM
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Jeffriey
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Whoa you've been busy Sonja lol.....I'm impressed. I'm no expert at this like Kai or Katie and yourself but I'll have a look....
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Member Comment
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12/4/2008 11:49:35 AM
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Katie M
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Jeffriey - While appreciate being lumped with Kai and Sonja in this category, I kinda learned from them. I think I've got a very good grasp on it now, but I'm no expert :)
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Member Comment
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12/4/2008 11:53:43 AM
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gfx
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That's a lot of work - well done! :)
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Author Comment
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12/4/2008 12:36:29 PM
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aaron
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Killer. This is the type of stuff I need.
Anyone see any glaring errors? Please review that post as the working document.
Thanks gang!
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Member Comment
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12/4/2008 2:03:16 PM
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amarilrose
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Excellent list Sonja! My only concern is that your hands probably got tired -- looks like a few "i's" replaced some "a's."
Aaron, if you double-check species name spellings, you should be good!
I believe the spelling for the Rainbow Boa species name is Epicrates cenchria and for Rosy Boas: Lichanura trivirgata
:)
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Member Comment
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12/4/2008 2:36:08 PM
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Sonja K. Reptiles
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Aah yes... I should have warned everyone that my typing skills and species names are not among my strong points - LOL (No formal education in either.)
: ) Thanks!
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Member Comment
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12/4/2008 3:38:37 PM
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Sonja K. Reptiles
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As Jeff asked me about...
there is such a thing as a local of Columbian BCC, too. My understanding is that they are extremely rare in the trade today...and it's highly unlikely anyone is going to have a true Columbian BCC. So, I kind of left that one out on purpose to avoid some potential confusion - LOL - The difference between the BCI and the BCC would be seen by using scale counts.
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Member Comment
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1/9/2009 11:42:24 PM
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amarilrose
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Aaron, was there something more you were looking for on this question? :)
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