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Assisted Answer
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5/7/2009 10:32:54 AM
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FyreFocks
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The fasting is normal for males during breeding season. I had 2 males go over a month without eating this year and neither of them were on the breeding roster. The smell just drove them nuts. When you say hes lost a considerable amount of weight, how much are we talking here?
As for the brown stuff, what kind of substrate do you use in the tank he is in?
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Member Comment
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5/7/2009 10:40:24 AM
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FyreFocks
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I just checked his tracking and that seems like a lot of weight loss to me, though it could be normal. Has he spent this breeding season cruising his cage a lot? Also, has he put a lot of energy into trying to court the female? Its possible that the weight loss is just from energy put forth to propagate his species. After youve seen his copulate a couple times, 3 would probably be enough, you should pull him. Set up his cage in another room and see if he doesnt go back to feeding normally.
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Author Comment
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5/7/2009 2:49:17 PM
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mkandiko
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We only observed him copulate once and then gave him a week and took him out. He cruises his tank a lot yes. The pet store said he had a slight case of mouth rot so we will work on fixing that tonight. They also said he's a little dry so we will work on that too. The last thing they said is that he still could go a while longer with out food that he still has some weight on him to spare. So, we just have to work on the problems and get that taken care of. Thank you so much for your responses.
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Member Comment
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5/7/2009 3:22:09 PM
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FyreFocks
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I would think that if he had mouthrot, he would have open sores in his mouth and along the gumline. If i were you, i would go to a vet for a good diagnosis.
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Member Comment
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5/7/2009 3:32:12 PM
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vonnick52
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I second what nate's saying....or if you could, use a plastic pen and use it to open the snakes mouth and a get a good pic of the inside of it, that will help one of us to determine if its mouthrot or not.
Good luck!
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Author Comment
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5/7/2009 5:43:06 PM
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mkandiko
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I will try tonight to get a good pic of the inside of the mouth. He is not a cooperative little guy when it comes to his head. I'll try though.
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Member Comment
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5/7/2009 7:48:00 PM
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LokisKafka
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remember that there are two types of rot. I think this one is a fungal. Like in humas it would be a yeast mouth infection but snakes get something else like an athletes feet of the mouth. There is another that is bacterial. It makes a huge difference in treatment.
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Author Comment
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5/7/2009 9:35:44 PM
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mkandiko
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Is the hydrogen peroxide the right method? That is what the pet store told us to do. I haven't tried to photograph the inside of his mouth yet, I'm not sure he'll cooperate but I haven't tried yet.
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Assisted Answer
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5/8/2009 12:58:47 AM
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shellboa
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OMG please do NOT use peroxide on your snake!!! If you need to use any thing topical use betadine or neosporin. If it is a fungal issue first make sure the bedding is clean and not staying too wet. Humidity good -damp bedding bad. Not trying to knock your husbandry just offering suggestions. For the feeding issue, if the weight loss continues I'd suspect parsites and get a fecal done. If he eats again soon and puts it back just as easy as he lost it and keeps it then don't worry.
If the brown stuff doesn't go away using betadine (swab it on and then rinse it in a few minutes with warm water) dillute some clorhexadrine (nolvasan) and wipe the brown spots with a cloth dampened with it. Mouth rot shows globs of cheezy white junk and usually doesn't have that brown stuff on the outside. It also makes them drool and stinks!
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Author Comment
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5/8/2009 8:52:45 AM
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mkandiko
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Hmm, interesting. No drool, no smelly stuff. His tank is clean, we did a mass cleaning after we discovered it. It is usually pretty clean but we spot clean, we took all the bedding out and added all new this time. I have a natural snake oil, I have no idea where I got it, it's been around a while but when we put that on his mouth, the brown stuff goes away in a day. He doesn't have damp bedding but we are trying to get it a little more moist. He's dry. I got some smaller food too incase he will take that. They did say that he could go a while longer with out eating if he chooses but I'd prefer him to start eating. I guess she had one at breeding season that wouldn't eat for like 3 months and it scared her too but he'd start eating again. I'm hoping we can get him to feeling better and then get him eating again. He's my first snake and I've never had a problem with him. He was my best eater. Thank you all for your responses, I will see if I can't get him feeling better.
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Assisted Answer
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5/8/2009 10:36:03 AM
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amarilrose
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I'm tempted to think that the brown stuff is either something from his cage or substrate (like dust), OR a fungus. It does NOT have to an incidence of mouth rot for this to be caused by a fungus; different kinds of fungus can affect the exterior skin. If you really care about this animal, you need to get him to a qualified veterinarian for a proper diagnosis. No petstore can do that for you, no matter how well-intentioned.
Also, on ANY species, it is EXTREMELY detrimental to use hydrogen peroxide on any mucous membranes such as the skin on the inside of the mouth, inside the nose, near the eyes, and cloaca/urogenital/rectal areas. PLEASE, PLEASE, do NOT use peroxide for treating this.
Furthermore, have you ever heard of "snake oil" as a euphemism for anything deceptive? That is its no-kidding dictionary meaning. That is also what I would call the product sold in petstores as "snake oil;" I have seen it sold before as a shedding aid. It is completely unnecessary, and I suspect completely worthless, if not also detrimental. Don't use it. If your snake is dirty and needs to be cleaned, use water. If he needs help shedding, USE WATER. Shedding difficulties are most commonly linked to humidity problems, but can also be caused by nutritional deficiency. If what is on his face is in fact a fungus, more humidity could in fact make the problem WORSE. In all cases, you should really take this snake to a vet to get a good understanding of what is going on. It may even be helpful to talk to the vet on the phone and email him the picture you posted here, so the vet can research the issue a bit further before your appointment. I don't personally know of any good vets in northeast WI, but my sister-in-law is a vet tech in central WI, so if you cannot find a good vet, let us know here; maybe I can help find one, or somebody else here can.
I wish you both the best of luck! :)
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Member Comment
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5/8/2009 10:38:11 AM
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amarilrose
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I wanted to add that your picture posted with this question is excellent! Unfortunately, none of us can properly diagnose the problem even with an awesome photo. :)
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Member Comment
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5/8/2009 10:53:12 PM
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wendhend
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I participate in a forum, which is especially for corn snakes, and I bet you could also get some good answers on that forum if you posted this question and picture. Check out their site at http://www.cornsnakesource.com . I know one active member of that forum is a vet... and she lives in Wisconsin.
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Author Comment
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5/9/2009 9:38:54 AM
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mkandiko
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Ok, I am a member there too but they always seem kind of mean when I ask questions but I'll try. I haven't tried to feed him yet but the stuff on his face seems to be improving with just a misting of vitamin spray and he is more curiously searching now rather then frantically searching. I may try feeding again today and see. Thanks though, I'll try that forum. I know I searched on there but didn't find anything that really was like his but maybe if I post the thread.
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Author Comment
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5/9/2009 4:29:42 PM
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mkandiko
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Well, I did something I wouldn't normally do. I thawed out a minky mouse for him (I do have a smaller snake) and decided to try to feed him in his tank (again, this is something I would never normally do, I know the problems with it) but he about took my finger with the thing. So, he's either ready to eat again or he wanted the smaller mouse. He ended up eating three of them. I will try in a couple days to feed him a larger mouse and see what happens.
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Author Comment
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5/9/2009 4:36:10 PM
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mkandiko
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This is the best photo I could get while he was eating a pinky. It's an attempt at the inside of his mouth. His mouth is kind of red, don't know if that is normal. Here's the link to the photo.
http://www.iherp.com/Gallery/88774/6464_39346_Large_2V7zOm14CmNg.jpg
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Member Comment
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5/9/2009 4:49:46 PM
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amarilrose
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that photo isn't so helpful :(
I see the brown stuff well enough as before, but the redness there looks pretty normal to me. Whether or not you can get a picture of the inside of his mouth, it is worth taking him to a vet. Are you having trouble finding one that will see reptiles? I asked my sister-in-law and she said she will ask around.
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Author Comment
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5/9/2009 7:02:17 PM
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mkandiko
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I might have found one. I have to call on Monday. Her reviews online though are over 3 years old so I don't know if she is still there.
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Member Comment
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5/12/2009 10:10:23 AM
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Assisted Answer
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5/12/2009 1:22:47 PM
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JohnJohn
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If he just ate three pinky mice, you might want to wait a week at least before you feed him again.
Also, I would avoid anything like "vitamin spray" as you mentioned. It'd really not necessary and may just add to his stress. If you keep him clean and dry and on a regular feeding schedule he should do fine. As others said, I'm definitely not knocking your husbandry. Just recommending that vitamin supplementation is unnecessary for a healthy snake. Misting, very occaisionally, is fine if you need to add humidity or help with shedding, but good clen water is all you need for that.
What kind of substrate are you using? I'm wondering if this could be related to what kind of substrate you are using. Long ago (like 25 years ago) I had a ball python that I kept on some sort of bark substrate that I bought at a pet shop. I wasn't maintaining the temps or the humidity properly at all and this substratre irritated the snake. He had brown stuff on his mouth that looked just like yours and even had some on his belly scales that the vet diagnosed as a skin infection, but that was long long ago and I don't remember what kind of infection she said. or if she even said. The snake proceeded to develop an RI and became very sick but eventually recovered. That was my first big lesson in improvement of husbandry conditions. Changing the substrate helped that snake a lot. At that time, I switched to newspaper and most of my snakes have been on newspaper ever since with no problem at all.
There are a lot of good substrates available now, more that there were many years ago. But I don't think any kind of bark substrate is ideal for a corn snake. Newspaper is good. Paper towel is good but has to be changed often. Aspen is good I believe but I've never used it. Others here might also have some specific advice about substrate.
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Member Comment
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5/12/2009 1:30:14 PM
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JohnJohn
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One more thing. A vet check could be helpful, yes. But don't overdo it with any kind of home remedies, or treatment efforts not suggested by a vet. You should continue to keep a close eye on it and monitor the situation, but I definitely recommend to keep handling to a minimum and treatments to a minimum beyond the minimum of whatever is necessary. Sometimes all the added treatment and handling can only add more stress to the animal. Sometimes its really best to keep them as quiet and undisturbed as possible when they are combating a health problem to avoid further stress.
Again, not knocking your husbandry. The fact that you are on here asking questions shows that you care and are wanting to do all you can. We all certainly appreciate that fact. But keep in mind that some time left alone is often good for the animal to minimize stress.
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Author Comment
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5/12/2009 1:53:11 PM
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mkandiko
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I found a vet in Appleton and they are going to see him as a possible ill snake and are trying to get reptile owners to bring in their animals once a year like you would a cat or dog so two of the three will go in and see them.
We use reptibark for a substrate. He's been on that probably for more then a year to two years. All three are on that substrate. I don't handle very much with him right now and he even ate in his tank when he ate the three pinkies (I wouldn't normally do that). The temps are pretty consistent in his tank, the lights are all on timers so they come on and go off the same time every day. The vet I talked to also very much agreed that Hyrdrogen Peroxide is bad, they said they learned years ago not to use that on reptile skin. They said this could be the start of something or it may not be but they'll give piece of mind by telling us for sure.
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Accepted Answer
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5/12/2009 8:09:46 PM
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MegF
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I've had males go off food for 3 months during breeding season. I also think the brown is from him rubbing thru things in his search for the chicks. My male lost about 50 grams in the 3 months he was cruising around. I offered him food every 2 weeks or so and one night he finally took it. I'd not worry too much unless he starts acting lethargic or really loses a lot of weight.
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Author Comment
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5/18/2009 12:05:36 PM
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mkandiko
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Verdict is in, Sal does not have mouth rot, his mouth looked good. He is a little dehydrated and a little thin (he hasn't eaten) but he did shed last night. The vet suggested de-worming him and the other two snakes and to soak him once a week. She said when he resumes eating, he should be fine. No mites, no illnesses she can see just that he's a little off. She said if he doesn't improve to let them know but she thinks he'll be fine.
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Member Comment
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5/18/2009 12:43:39 PM
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amarilrose
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Good! I'm glad you've got that peace of mind. :) Soaking should generally help too.
How are you deworming?
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Author Comment
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5/18/2009 6:50:00 PM
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mkandiko
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It is an oral de-wormer, she gave us two different meds, the first is Panacur and the second is Metronidazole. It's for all three snakes, not just the one that isn't feeling well but they said that all of them should be de-wormed. We'll give it a try and see what happens. They also said to use a different bedding like indoor/outdoor carpeting.
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Author Comment
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5/18/2009 8:12:04 PM
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mkandiko
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He ate, it was a little tricky but he ate the mouse and we'll see how well he processes it. We'll de-worm in a few days. Maybe we can get that weight put back on!
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Member Comment
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1/17/2011 1:20:19 AM
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abi21491
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