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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 9:36:58 PM
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FyreFocks
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Who did you buy him from?
Sincerly,
the perv
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 9:52:54 PM
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gfx
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Wow. What a beautiful animal. Is it solid color under the chin and all along the belly? Any pattern under the eye or is it a solid tone everywhere?
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Author Comment
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5/16/2009 9:53:03 PM
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gtp
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A guy...LOL. No, he was given (species unknown) to someone who was helping one of the vendors at the show. He brought him to the show to see if he could find out any info. No one there could identify him except for the conclusion that he does not appear to be of any venomous species that anyone knows of and appears to be a colubrid. Oh, and quit stalking me perv!!!! LOL!!
Sincerely,
the Master
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 9:56:08 PM
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Jeffriey
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Plains Blackhead Snake? Tantilla nigriceps
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 9:57:35 PM
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Jeffriey
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or Ground Snake, Sonora semiannulata
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 9:59:27 PM
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Jeffriey
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I'm just guessing here LOL. It does look like it has the head on an Indigo though.
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Author Comment
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5/16/2009 9:59:58 PM
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gtp
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He is dark chocolate/black at the tip of his nose and slowly fades to a caramel copper color. No distinct markings or patterns anywhere. He does have a few black flecks here and there but they are minimal. So, pretty much just a solid tone.
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 10:04:57 PM
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gfx
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I wonder if he's a Drymarchon cross. If he turns out to be a purebred snake, I'm going to want some! lol.
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Author Comment
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5/16/2009 10:08:19 PM
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gtp
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Jeffriey, it's head is different than the plains blackhead or the ground.... I would swear by handling it that it is an indigo cross/morph of some kind. He is beautiful and has a very unique personality. His color on his belly is the exact same as his back. No solid lines or extreme color changes....just smooth and flowing.
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Author Comment
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5/16/2009 10:08:58 PM
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gtp
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gfx, I'll put you on the list!
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Author Comment
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5/16/2009 10:10:06 PM
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gtp
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That's what we keep coming back to....a Drymarchon cross or color morph
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 10:15:58 PM
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Jeffriey
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Yeah I was wondering the same thing as Julie and I want some too LOL definitely looks like a Drymarchon of some type
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 10:17:35 PM
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gfx
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Its head isnt quite right for a Drymarchon, but it sure has some of the characteristics of a unicolor cribo. Oddly, I went and refreshed my memory on spitting cobra head type as well.
OT - are you going to the AWDF championship next weekend?
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Author Comment
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5/16/2009 10:28:20 PM
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gtp
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I wish! No, have 2 birthday parties and a family reunion :0(
He has the gentleness of an indigo, the look of a cribo.... But like I said at the beginning, he also reminded my of a false water cobra. That movement and beauty that they posess.... I can snap a few more pics tomorrow if need be! I never thought it would be so hard to ID him, LOL!!!
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 10:37:03 PM
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Jeffriey
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Hey I want to go watch that LOL now about those Detroit Red Wings....
Does look a bit like a FWC...
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 10:39:22 PM
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Author Comment
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5/16/2009 10:54:22 PM
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gtp
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Jeffriey, yeah, a patternless fwc with a gentle nature! This guys scales look more like an indigo or a cribo though....I need a break and a fresh approach tomorrow....along with some coffee, lol!
Nate, you know I love you! LOL!
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 10:55:52 PM
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gfx
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LOL....you mean Team Ulcer? That was the probably best series I've seen in all of the years I've been addicted to the game. I'm hoping for a Detroit x Carolina finals so I dont have to drive all the way back home to go to the game.
I'm not going to AWDF either. I found a good local schH club so I dusted off the 6 year old mondio ring Malinois and converted her to the sleeve. She's ready for her BH now and I should have at least a 1 and hopefully a 2 on her by year's end.
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 10:59:41 PM
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Jeffriey
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Yeah I was just comparing scales and you're right more like an indigo or cribo. btw my FWC is a sweetie 
Yup Detroit and Carolina. Then Carolina for the win.....
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Member Comment
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5/16/2009 11:01:51 PM
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gfx
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Carolina's tried that before.
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 2:17:24 AM
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Geckofactor
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Looks kind of like a really light phase Mussurana try to get a picture of it face on and it would probably help out a lot if you don't know any other background info on it at all.
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 10:04:34 AM
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natsamjosh
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For what it's worth (I'm no expert), it doesn't look like a Drymarchon to me. Better pics would definitely help, but the way the scales separating the head from the neck do so in
what looks like a straight line (from side to side) makes me think it's not a dry. On my indigos (and in the cribo pics I've looked at) the head and neck scales are separate in
more of a "V" shape.
Anyway, great snake. Cross/hybrid/frankenstein or not, feel free to send it to me for further study... :)
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Author Comment
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5/17/2009 10:59:47 AM
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gtp
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Here is a top view....I want to wait until I have someone else at home to get a frontal....
[IMG]http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq54/gtp_2/who7.jpg[/IMG]
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Author Comment
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5/17/2009 11:00:04 AM
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gtp
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Sorry, I couldn't link the pic
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Author Comment
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5/17/2009 11:45:07 AM
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gtp
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Here's another shot
[IMG]http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq54/gtp_2/who8.jpg[/IMG]
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 11:46:52 AM
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FyreFocks
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I still have no input here, but since it isnt green or a python, you should have Alexis bring it to me. You dont need it. 
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Author Comment
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5/17/2009 12:23:51 PM
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gtp
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LMAO Nate! how's...uh ..NO. LOL!!! Perv!
Still have a lot of "feelers" out there trying to figure this guy out. Lots of suggestions, just can't pin point it down. I'm starting to get attached to him though....
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 12:25:45 PM
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 12:34:08 PM
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Author Comment
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5/17/2009 12:46:46 PM
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 2:03:37 PM
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Author Comment
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5/17/2009 3:05:56 PM
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gtp
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nice indigo, it looks similar to our two 08 red throat babies. This guys head scale pattern is more like a "W". Body scale texture is the same as the indigo. Musk smell like an indigo. Behavior remarkably similar to an indigo. That is what is throwing us so much... I'm waiting to hear back from a few zoo people and Vet's, so we'll see if they come up with anything.
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 3:57:04 PM
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Geckofactor
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If I was going to say drymarchon i'd say caudomaculatus which I'm sure none of us have seen enough of to really give a yay or nay on and certainly not from the pictures really. Obviously the odd thing is the seemingly completely uniform coloration even if it was a hybrid it would have some sort of flecks of darker or lighter color somewhere. It would help if the person you got it from had said what it was originally eating or how long they had it or where it originally came from pretty much any info at all an approximate age maybe. If you took it to a herpetologist locally they could probably id it but the problem there is a lot of times they want to take things apart if they think it's rare or new.
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Member Comment
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5/17/2009 4:44:40 PM
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natsamjosh
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Thanks. Let us know what the zoo people say. I'd be surprised if it is a dry, the head/neck scale pattern looks non-dry to me. Good luck!
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Author Comment
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5/17/2009 11:39:35 PM
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gtp
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Sorry to be a pain, but here is a summary of tonights indepth exam. It was darker in the room so the flash was a little intense giving his head a lighter hue in some shots. His head is darker than his body...more true to color in the original pics. I did not edit the photos.
We found no venom sacs/glands or fangs (front or rear). Sorry about the little bit of blood. I found the black feathering color behind the trachea interesting.
Here is a shot of the anal vent which you can see is split, therefore leading us to conclude that he is non-venomous.
We measured him and he is much closer to 4 foot than 3 foot. Here is a shot of his body girth in comparison to his head.
Some scale shots...definately rounded. I can't get a fingernail under them.
I did not notice the mottling under his chin yesterday. This shot also shows the scale configuration.....doesn't match a king.
Comparison pics
Just pics of the way he holds himself
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Member Comment
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5/18/2009 12:00:09 AM
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Geckofactor
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I swear that thing looks like a really uniform D. Caudomaculatus but I'd be really really surprised if it was. Caudomaculatus looks a bit different from other drymarchon but I've never seen one in person and have seen very few pictures but it looks really similar. Should be interesting if you figure it out I'm sure we'll all feel stupid if it turns out to be somethign super common.
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Member Comment
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5/18/2009 12:00:43 AM
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gfx
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Its a hypomelanistic black milksnake or a black milk intergrade.
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Member Comment
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5/18/2009 12:12:25 AM
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Geckofactor
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That coloration is reversed from that of a hypo mexican black king and I don't think its a hypo mexican milk either. Maybe an integrade of some sort but still really odd if it's even that being reversed.
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Author Comment
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5/18/2009 12:27:09 AM
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gtp
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Scale pattern on the side of the head and neck doesn't match the milk. Someone didn't believe the size of the snake was more than 12 inches, so here's this as well...
I didn't feel like running down to the workshop to grab a yardstick, so I used my old putter and the 4 foot Boamasters cages for measurement.
close-up
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Member Comment
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5/18/2009 1:01:49 AM
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gfx
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Its body scales remind me of the black milk. Much of the head scale pattern does too. The scales behind the eye and blending into the neck are different, but the snout and top scales are very similar. I've never seen a hypo black milksnake or hypo MBK so that was just a guess. I bet its some honduran x black milksnake x MBK x eastern king x ?? cross. Lucky snag. It'll be interesting to see how big it gets for you. I bet it'd eat another snake...
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Author Comment
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5/18/2009 1:45:30 AM
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gtp
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You're a trip! Is that like a mutt dog? I have a mutt snake? LOL! ohhh, I bet he'd eat another snake too. He did hit, roll and swallow a f/t adult mouse tonight...no real "constriction" per say. Should I be like all those old folks that had weiner dogs and name him "brownie"?
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Member Comment
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5/18/2009 4:33:27 PM
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gfx
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I was going to say mutt snake, but it sounded a bit negative so I changed my words! lol.
Definitely pick a good mutt dog name for him. Brownie rocks. I like Rex too.
If I have any broken snakes born this year, I'll let ya know...
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Member Comment
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5/19/2009 11:54:23 PM
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Geckofactor
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A friend of mine looked at it and is swearing it's a western coachwhip.
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Author Comment
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5/20/2009 12:18:05 AM
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gtp
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I know it looks similar but looking closely at the scale config and count, it is off from the anterior temporal row and behind... then theres the underside...... Ed from the Philly zoo ruled out all coachwhips at this point. I kept looking at them and the goini king but neither match...this is frustrating as he##! I think I've viewed every colubrid online....aaarrggghhhh!!!!!! Tell him thanks and great guess (insistance) but it's just not quite it, but please keep looking, I really appreciate the help from everyone!!!!!
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Member Comment
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5/20/2009 1:11:24 AM
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Geckofactor
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Well I didnt think coachwhip really either until he pulled a snake that looks exactly like that out of his freezer same little coloration under the mouth and all. So whatever it is we had atleast one in Florida.
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Member Comment
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5/20/2009 10:52:08 AM
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JohnJohn
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If I had to guess, I would really say coachwhip also, but you should be able to rule that out if you could get some very specific specs for coachwhips like scale counts etc. Looks an awful lot like a western coachwhip to me.
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Author Comment
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5/20/2009 11:18:31 PM
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gtp
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I know it does... but only in the color and the length (believe me I wish this was over already). The dorsal scale count is off by 8, which is rather substantial. The posterior chin shields are totally different as well as the gular scales. Post occular and anterior temporal are also different. So there are too many discrepancies for a hit. Kevin from the Maryland Zoo passed the info out to some colleagues as did Frank Indiviglio. Also B. W. Smith of Animal South is trying to get a positive ID as well. Then there are the numerous other well known herpotologists (who want to remain annonomous) out there that are asking questions and having me take other pics. Then there's little ole' me...the nut that has sat in front of a computer for 3 days looking at documents, photo's and info on snakes that quite honestly I never even nor heard of before! But most of all, there are a hundred nice fellow herpers that are taking the time to search their computers and info to help figure this thing out. THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!!! If I get any other leads, I will keep you updated! Keep the ideas coming though!!!!
Geckofactor, can your friend take some close-up pics of his snake and email them to me?
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 8:47:44 AM
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natsamjosh
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There still is one burning question remaining in my mind. Were the people handling the snake in the above picture naked???
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 8:52:54 AM
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FyreFocks
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I highly doubt that her husband and daughter were naked for this picture, but i suppose it cant hurt to ask.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 8:54:01 AM
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JohnJohn
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Ed, that is really funny. I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. You must have nakedness on the brain. Hahahahahaha. Do you handle your snakes naked? I've been known to do some spot cleaning and feeding in my underwear on a sunday morning......who hasn't?
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 8:56:45 AM
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FyreFocks
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My snakes are all in my bedroom, so it happens. The cleaning i mean, not the handling. 
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:07:42 AM
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JohnJohn
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Hey! It's a new idea for a photo contest! Snakes and naked people! Ok, maybe snakes and people in underwear. Aaron, you should totally consider it!
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:09:16 AM
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FyreFocks
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Trust me John, no one wants to see me in that light.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:14:40 AM
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natsamjosh
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I'm going to have to take the Fifth on the question of whether I ever handled my snake naked.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:18:21 AM
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FyreFocks
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Ed, wouldnt it be dangerous for you to handle the indigos naked?
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:18:41 AM
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JohnJohn
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Well, I guess we don't want to tarnish iHerp's good reputation. Hahahahaha. Still, the bad parts could be pixelated out. (is pixelated the right word?).
I think a snakes and underwear photo contest should come with a really big prize for the winner, like one of Ed's Indigos or Aaron's Chondros! I'd definitely participate if the prize was good enough.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:19:59 AM
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JohnJohn
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Sorry, Ame. We got off topic here.
Seriously, I'm dieing to know the answer to your mystery. Keep us posted on what you find.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:21:37 AM
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FyreFocks
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Im sure Ame will get a good laugh from all this.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 9:21:57 AM
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JohnJohn
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Take the fifth? Ed, isn't that what blatently guilty people say? Hahahaha. Busted!
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 10:07:04 AM
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natsamjosh
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Nate, I was going to make a similar comment about the danger of handling indigos naked, but it's just too painful to think about. And I can't even imagine how to explain it at the urgent care or emergency room.
Not sure about a underwear photo contest. Maybe we should make and sell a "Men and Women of iHerp" calendar to raise some money to help defray some of Aaron's costs and/or donate to some good cause. Ok, never mind...
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 10:15:30 AM
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FyreFocks
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How did this happen, sir?
Well, i heard a noise in my snake room so i jumped out of bed to go see what it was. When i opened the door, BAM!
Seriously though, it would scar the youngsters of iherp if we did a naked/semi naked photo contest.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 10:22:10 AM
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JohnJohn
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hahahaha. Ed. I think you may be on to something here. But, you first.
Yes, Nate, I suppose we should clean up our act here. It's a family friendly place. I guess we're just bored. And it's not even Friday yet.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 10:24:02 AM
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FyreFocks
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What do you mean, "its not even friday yet"? I thought it was friday. Holy crap! Im so lost and confused. Im going back to bed now.
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Author Comment
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5/21/2009 1:09:33 PM
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gtp
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They were in their "jammies" as it was bed time, LOL! I do most of the cleaning in my undies and a t-shirt...get's too hot in the herp room when your working.....too hot to be fully dressed that is. Ok....enough about cleaning attire! We were over at one of our friends house and I was taking pics of their snakes for them. Well, we decided to get the pigmy rattler out and take some close-ups....almost had to explain to the emergency room why our friend got nailed by a little venomous pigmy rattlesnake in his "pee-pee". He moved just in time to save his privates from being exposed to quite a few medical career personnel!!!!!
No updates yet on the mystery boy..
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 6:25:32 PM
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Joseph Jenkins
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As long as it is a female only contest...that would be SWEET!!!
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 6:29:42 PM
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gfx
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I'm sorry, but a female-only contest will be unacceptable.
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 6:33:40 PM
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FyreFocks
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And why is that Julie? Who do you wanna see naked with a snake?
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 6:36:20 PM
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Member Comment
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5/21/2009 6:41:38 PM
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Member Comment
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8/21/2009 7:48:22 PM
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lolaophidia
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The shield scale on the head definitely looks like a king - either a really faded Mexican Black King or an intergrade with another king species (Californian chocolate phase perhaps?).
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Member Comment
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1/17/2011 6:53:42 AM
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abi21491
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This question has had no activity for 14 days and will be closed by an administrator unless the original poster takes action.
Recommended Action: Points awarded
An administrator will select responses and assign points at their discretion.
Original poster, please close this question out and assign points. If you have any further information in the resolution of your problem, please post it here so that others may learn from it.
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