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Q:
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Feeding too much too fast?
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Ok, so I finally managed to edit/rewrite this. I felt this would be a good topic to discuss seeing as there are so many inexperienced/beginning herper’s out there and people that are just misconceiving/misunderstanding the feeding aspect of snakes. So where does the line between not feeding enough, feeding the proper amount and over feeding lie? Well it’s all a matter of
1. What type of snake you own.
2. How old the snake is.
3. How big the snake is.
4. Is the snake a shy/picky/finicky eater.
5. Is the snake an aggressive eater.
6. Are there any health concerns going on.
7. What you choose to feed your snake.
8. Is your snake breeding.
To start off I wish people that actually knew what they were talking about online were the ones acknowledged for the simple fact, an example…
When I began my journey into the snake hobby I wanted an RTB but instead started with a ball python. Something happened with poor little Leviathan and his journey with me lasted only a short time. I initially went against getting an RTB because everywhere I read said that RTB’s reached 6 feet within their first year. Although this seemed a bit quick for the growth rate of a snake I had decided against it. But once I lost Leviathan I said to hell with it and got my first RTB, Ebonayia. Here I am two years later feeding my 5-5 ½ foot RTB medium/large rats every 7 days unless in a shed cycle. I have never weighed her but I’m guessing she is no more than 10 pounds…ish.
…So where did the 6 foot snake in the first year calculation come from? I imagine if I fed Eb’s a large/jumbo rat once a week she would grow faster. Even more-so if I started her out on rats, then began to feed her guinea pigs or small rabbits now instead of medium rats. I choose to keep her on rats though until she hits 10+ ft…IF and when she even gets that size.
The biggest dividing factor though is number 7...What you choose to feed your snake will dictate how quick your snake grows and how truly healthy your snake is. I believe you should start a neo (RTB) out with the first stage of a mouse’s life, the pinky. In my opinion once they hit the 4 day mark (mouse). Once your neo get’s big enough to take a fuzzy there’s the next step, then on up to the hopper, then the small, medium, etc, etc. Until you reach a large/jumbo mouse. Then, I feel you should switch to fuzzy rats. Again in my opinion I would go from a large/jumbo mouse to a 2 week old rat. They’re practically the same size, maybe just a tad bigger. Sure you might skip on size here or there; but if you’re measuring your snakes on a consistent basis you will know when is best to move to the next size food. I will be honest, I have not followed this method until recently once I acquired my youngest RTB’s who are currently feeding on hoppers and measure about 24” average.
I do not breed yet so I haven’t seen every stage of a snakes life; but I feel after many trial’s, error’s and different method’s, I feel I have found the most averaged out feeding regimen. Something I figured out on my own for the most part; but also something I have learned through reading blog’s on here, following the Q’s n A’s, talking to RTB breeders and most importantly my vet. I’ve also learned a lot of different scenarios dictate your snakes eating habit. For example, heat, humidity, amount of traffic, noise, etc. If it’s too cold your snake wont eat as often, if it’s too hot your snake might defecate more. They might not be hydrated well enough. It might be too noisy, bright or vibrations from stereo’s or TV’s or even how heavy you walk. Do you have mite’s? All these factors that aren’t taken into consideration until after the fact because as an inexperienced reptile owner, we don’t know what to expect or what questions to ask until the problem or scenario is presented to us.
The best way to look at it is, “Do I really want my snake to grow THAT fast in it’s first year? Or should I take the first few months to get a feel for my snake’s needs and requirements for feeding, husbandry and overall care to understand that individual snakes specific needs?” Better to let your snake decide and not yourself. Honestly it will take a while. I still don’t have all my snake’s individual needs down but I’m getting there. Most of MY snakes are newer acquisitions, Eb’s is the largest, 2nd oldest and out of all snakes, one out of two we understand and know all the way around.
So when it comes to feeding it’s not about throwing a rat in and watching the snake kill it, although that is quite exhilarating in the beginning. It’s about giving your snake the proper “self-requirements” of it’s individual self and giving it the best possible care you can provide.
Please do us a favor though…If you can’t get your animal to a vet but know they need vet care get your local herp buddies involved. We’re a community, one that is fighting for the face of the world to see us as understanding, RESPONSIBLE reptile owners. Not some dingbat that wanted a large boa or python because it would be cool to show off. It’s not fair to an animal that is born into a captive world that has no control over itself but instead has to rely on the fate given to it by it’s owner. How would you like to be in the snakes position of hoping to get food and proper heating and humidity instead of knowing where to find it in the wild?
Oh one more thing. Snakes are opportunistic feeders. So just because they’re going to take food from you every 3-4 days doesn’t mean they NEED to. Like it was brought to my attention earlier. A snake doesn’t know when it’s going to get it’s next meal in the wild, so yeah when you shove a mouse or rat in front of it’s face all the time and it takes it, it has good reason. Also a snake IS a WILD animal living in a captive world. So please to pull the stupid card and starve your snake for 6 months just because they bit you. They’re not a dog, you can’t punish them, only abuse them.
Anyways, I hope you enjoyed this blog. If you feel I left anything out please don’t hesitate to add it in by commenting. I’ll be sure to add it into the blog somehow once it’s posted. And obviously for those who read this before I posted the previous blog…it’s totally different. It took me an hour and a half versus 5-10 minutes to write lol.
Well I’m off to bed. Enjoy J
Megan
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Member Comment
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5/14/2010 4:46:58 PM
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Miss Andrea
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I am always wondering where that line is too. I wonder if people even think about the snake's appetite when they decide how much they should eat...
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Accepted Answer
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5/14/2010 5:09:36 PM
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shellboa
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One of the things you need to consider are the differences in feeding patterns between the person who keeps a few snakes as pets and the person who has a large collection for the specific purpose of breeding for profit. Back when we had 5 snakes we could afford to go to the pet store and pay $3-5 for an appropriate sized meal on a regular basis. Now that we number over 100 animals we found it to be less exspensive ( and more reassuring) to breed our own feeders. I do not consider us to be big time breeders even though we do breed simply because we do not breed every animal we own, we are not in it just for profit and when push comes to shove the welfare of the animals come before the importance of lining our pockets. That said, I feed most of the snakes on a weekly basis, hatchlings are fed 2x a week and any animal that eats a large meal regularly gets fed every other week. I feel this is as close as I can come to their natural feeding habits. In the wild a large constrictor will consume a prey animal of the maximum size it can and lie dormant in a safe place and digest this meal. Then repeat this cycle...except for during breeding season. I think it is most important to feed any animal more when it is a baby because this is when the most development is occuring. After that a steady diet as appropriate as possible should be provided. Not every snake eats every week but I offer them food any way. The only time I refrain from feeding is when they are obviously in shed and are known not to eat then, when they are obviously gravid (late stages) or if there is a health concern that neccessitates less feeding. I have wasted a lot of feeders by going this route but I'd rather waste the feeders than starve my animals.
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Member Comment
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5/14/2010 7:16:03 PM
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Carusima
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Shellboa worded it perfectly as that is what I do as well.
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Assisted Answer
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5/14/2010 9:03:15 PM
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aaron
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Feeding that frequently, in Chondros, is what I strongly believe leads to prolapses.
Each species is obviously different. I feed a lot less than most. However I have yet to have a prolapse in a normal chondro.
I'm not much of a fan of power feeding.
The nutritional advantages of adult mice v. rat pups is strongly debated over at MVF, most of them believe adult mice are better. I don't know that I have a strong opinion either way, but haven't had any issues with either.
This will end up in answers, just for searchability and posterity. :)
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Member Comment
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5/14/2010 10:57:09 PM
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kfethe
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Here is my position on feeding that I have formed from a few years of personal experience as well as quite a bit of indirect experience(reading, talking to others).
1. First of all, take into consideration the species that you are feeding. For some snakes it is completely acceptable to feed twice a week. For instance, it is my understanding that snakes like cribos and indigos do very well on a rapid feeding schedule because they have a very fast metabolism for a snake. Blood pythons are on the other end of that spectrum. If you fed a full grown blood twice a week it would explode. So basically, a feeding schedule is not a one size fits all affair. As with any other aspect of husbandry, research like your life depends on it and act accordingly.
2. Age does play a part in how rapid your feeding schedule should run. With any animal there are different stages of growth that require different nutritional input. Think of this one in terms of humans. When babies are born they get fed every few hours for several months. As they grow they slow down a little bit at a time up until they become adolescents and hit puberty. At that point it speeds back up and consuming 3000 calories a day is not entirely out of the question for a healthy person. A few years down the road it levels out again and slows from there. So like I said before: consider the species, do your research and act accordingly.
Finally, keep an eye on weight and body condition. If your animal is maintaining a steady weight but not growing at a stage when it should be, feed a little more. If your animal looks like the snake version of Peter Griffin, slow down with the chow for a while. On a sidenote, the only ones who benefit from power feeding are the keeper and they benefit at the detriment of their animals. I liken it to using steroids in feed animals. Chickens raised in concentrated feed lot operations do indeed get bigger faster and overall are much bigger than their naturally raised counterparts. As a result they become so enormous that they often can't even support their own weight. That is basically what goes on with power feeding. You are making your animal grow so much so fast that their body systems are overwhelmed by trying to keep up.
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Member Comment
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5/14/2010 11:30:48 PM
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treetrunkchris
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i feed just enough to leave a little lump, just so you can tell it ate something. i dont feed to where the lump is so big it makes the snake uncomfortable. i follow all the feeding schedules and all my snakes are on the right track to their healthy growth. i got my snakes on rat pinks and rat pups right away because certain snakes get use to mice and dont want to switch over(my female tiger retic was fed nothing but mice and now she's 4ft and wont eat rats and she should be on small/medium rats) as to where when i got my double hets as hatchlings(i fed them their first meal)i started them on rat pups. rat pups are just as big as adult mice, but you get more meat and nutrients outta them. but just like Aaron said, some people dont see it like that. if you have a retic that is 3-4ft in the first year you havent fed right, same with burms(unless you have dwarfs or superdwarfs) a healthy retic should be around 7-9ft in the first year(a little more or less isnt too bad, depends on locality too) and same with a burm, it should be around 6-8ft in the first year. on the NERD website they say for a nice healthy start you should feed 2x's a week untill a certain size then make it once a week. when a snake gets to a certain size(over 15-20ft)some people feed one big mean. bob clark feeds fluffy II(24ft tiger retic) like 6 10lb rabbits every couple months. reptilia feeds their 20ft retic a 65lb goat every 9 months(still doesnt seem too right to me for that one) but they are still very thick and very healthy for not eating as frequent. for my anacondas, they dont eat frequently so when they do eat i feed a little more than usual. my baby green anaconda only eats once or twice a month(offered every week) and when he does eat i'll feed him a couple at a time(rite now he's on rabbit pinkies) they are very notorious for not eating(even more so than ball pythons) so it does differ from snake to snake. i usually try to do the 10% body weight deal, where if you have a 30lb boa you feed it a 3lb meal. jumbo rats weigh 1lb, so im either feeding 3 of those, or just one 3lb rabbit. same with a 200lb retic, i would feed it two 10lb rabbits or four 5lb rabbits. feeding varies from people to people, all i know is i do it by the book and have never had an overweight snake and have never powerfed. ive had zoo keepers, herpetologists, vets all look at my snakes, and everytime i get great results, so im doing something good =-)
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Author Comment
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5/15/2010 12:16:09 AM
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EbonayiasGirl
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Thanks guys for all the good feedback. I agree with pretty much everyone is saying. I wrote this blog literally in 5 minutes so I basically put down what was coming to mind lol. But yes, it does vary between each species and what you are doing with your reptile i.e. breeding or pet. I'm still learning. Like the breeders I've talked to (boa's...seeing as that's my favored area) they all have their opinions and ways of feeding between their neo's, juveniles, subadults and adults and when it comes time for breeding...It all varries. It also depends on the attitude and appetite of the snake along with husbandry and cage set-up. I mainly wrote this to see what everyone would come back with and just to kind of get a good discussion for my own education and for others that are new to this that still are haveing questions or unsureness about their feeding system. Phew, too tired to read or write anymore so I will go back and re-read what you all have written tomorrow and hopefully edit or add more tomorrow. Who know's though because it's gona be a busy weekend. Thank you all for your input :D
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Member Comment
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5/15/2010 12:17:17 AM
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BirchbarkBoas
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I've only kept boas and one corn snake, so that's all I can base my experience on (and what I've read online, but I've learned to take all of that with a grain of salt).
I've seen a lot of fat boas. Online you see them for sale all the time. While I've read that it's okay for a breeder female to be slightly overweight before the season begins I don't believe that to mean there should be huge gaps between her scales and deep vertical lines all over her body from the skin folding on itself when she curls up.
I feed young boas (under two years) an appropriate sized meal every week. I give my older boas an appropriate meal every two weeks, though sometimes during the summer I'll feed them every week as well. I do my best to monitor them so they do not get overweight, and honestly I believe that exercise is just as important as appropriate feeding in keeping a healthy boa and I take my snakes out frequently to slither around and climb on things.
Honestly to me a boa growing to 6 feet in one year seems way too fast and unhealthy, even for a BCC female. Funny to compare though - my male Nicaraguan is just about 4 ft and two years old.
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Member Comment
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5/15/2010 12:50:39 AM
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Morticias Mojo
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A very good topic! I fed mine at first, going by the 'book'.. researched, asked questions and monitored him. He was fed weekly and as he grew, the meal became larger but it has been slow and steady. Now, I feed him every 10th day and that seems to work great. He's growing, very healthy, perfect sheds. He has only refused a meal one time. By the summer, I'll switch him from mice to rats. The reason I went to every 10 days is that offering it weekly, he would dilly dally around and after 20-30 minutes, finally take it. Now, he takes it right away.
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Member Comment
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5/15/2010 2:20:11 AM
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shellboa
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Not having kept either bloods or indigo's I would have to say what I wrote earlier applies to the species currently in my collection. I have one boa that I tried the whole power feeding deal with until I read about pin head syndrome. This is where the body grows according to the increased feeding schedule but the head does not so you have a big boa with a small head or a pinhead. I feel fortunate that mine does not suffer from this and wonder if it is because I stopped feeding that way while he was still young...I think that the breders who power feed for bigger females and in order to breed sooner do so with out concern for that animals longevity or quality of life. In my opinion they see tham as a commodity rather than some thing to take care of like one who keeps pets. Again this is my opinion and perhaps there are some who do takes the needs of their "breeding stock" into consideration.
Either way all of the animals I keep that did not come to me with pre-exsisting issues are healthy and fed as normal a feeding schedule as I can manage.
On a side note since this seems to mostly address snakes, how often do you omnivoris lizard keepers feed? Like BTS or beardies? Or strict carnivores for that matter like monitors and certain geckos?
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Member Comment
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5/15/2010 11:52:32 AM
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masterfulpoopsie
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With my carpets, ill feed them as much as they will eat, put a rat in there face, if they take it great if not oh well, and as long as there not gurging ill keep it up. However once they hit a certain age you simply can't keep that up, so i cut it back to about twice a month on adults but when there young ill feed the crap out of them!!
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Member Comment
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5/15/2010 5:19:53 PM
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Katie M
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Only thing I'd caution, Chris, is that a 30lb boa is most likely facing morbid obesity. There is very rarely a boa that is naturaly 30 lbs and healthy. So, most of my males are rarely fed larger than a large rat, and my females are not fed large enough prey to GET to 30 lbs. Even Bertha, who is pushing 30 lbs, is fed ONE jumbo rat every 10-14 days, as she IS obese ;)
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Member Comment
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5/16/2010 11:33:06 AM
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Acheron_08
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I am not a fan of power feeding either how ever I will feed my babies a lot more then I do my adults. I like to watch the grow and and I am in no hurry most of my breeding stalk are babies. My friend speedy told me get some male and female pairs and raise them up. So that's what I have. All of my animals I have been bought as babies but demona and Dionysus I bought them as adults. But I am not in it for profit. I am in b/c I love this hobby :) and my adults snakes I feed them every two weeks and the babies weekly. Feed the adults 2-3 food items of the right size and the babies I feed about 2-3 food items on a weekly basis: )
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Member Comment
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5/16/2010 11:34:51 AM
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shellboa
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I've only seen one 30+ boa but she was also over 9 feet long!
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Member Comment
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5/16/2010 5:08:08 PM
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MasonDixonReptiles
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Our male BCI, Carlos, weighs about 14 lbs and is just over 6'. He's four years old. He gets a large rat every other week. We were feeding smaller rats once per week up until a few months ago, but found that he started refusing them every other week or so... we decided to pay attention to what he was telling us and switched his schedule, but offered larger prey.
Our growing boy, Leonard, will be two this season and he is getting fed every week to 10 days, with small rats at this point. He's growing like a weed, but seems healthy.
The one thing a lot of people fail to take in is that reptilian growth patterns are A LOT different than mammalian growth pattern. Their rate of growth is completely dependent on how much food they can catch and when times are good, and food is plentiful, they will naturall and safely grow faster during those times. There's nothing wrong with that, per say, though from what I've read it does tend to shorten their lifespans. I'm okay with ours growing slowly... we're not racing to breed.
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Member Comment
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5/17/2010 3:03:36 AM
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aSnakeLovinBabe
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Psh, you guys all have it made. My baby snakes have to eat every. other. day. at 20-50 babies per clutch..... oh it's too much fun :)
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Assisted Answer
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5/17/2010 11:25:26 AM
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Geegmasta
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I think another attribute everyone has to look at is the size of the enclosure and the overall activity of the animal.
Like said earlier, snakes like Cribos and Drymarchons have a much higher metabolism than other snakes like boas or pythons. They will require more frequent feeding than any boa or python. But if you have an enclosure that isn't big enough for a snake to move around and get exercise, it can become very easy for a snake to become overweight. I've seen the vertical skin folds on snakes that are not overweight whatsoever, but because of the inadequate size of the enclosure, they just stay folded up as there isn't much room to move around.
That being said, my largest burm eats on par with all of those giant retics everyone mentioned earlier. She's not powerfed and she's not overweight (though I'm told she's much larger than what I think she is...accurate weight and lengths will be coming soon, it's very possible my burm is well over 200lbs). She has ample space to move around and is taken out quite often to just explore and roam around. The feeding schedule and amount she eats works with what I currently own. I'm still able to handle all 18 snakes that I own, they have plenty of space to move around and are given time to get exercise outside the enclosure. If I had 100, it may be a much different story.
My point is: A more active snake can be fed on a 7-10 day feeding schedule without harm (talking about pythons really, and as long as all other health aspects are good...defecating, hydration etc) as opposed to going weeks in between feeds. My 14-15ft+ burm still eats on the same schedule as my 7 foot burm or retics.
So much more could be written, but I gotta stop here I need to get up! I'm sure you all know what I mean...good blog topic.
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Member Comment
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5/18/2010 9:01:26 AM
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JohnJohn
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This is a good post. I agree with a lot of what others said so I won't repeat. But I do believe that feeding schedules should be adjusted depending on age, health, and species. Most of the snakes I keep are just the standard 7-10 days feeding schedule. But I feed most babies about every 4-5 days.
My juvie Blood is still eating once every five days, like clockwork, but smaller meals. I hope to get her on more of a 7-10 day schedule once I get her switched over from mice to rats.
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Member Comment
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5/18/2010 7:17:41 PM
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Sparkle
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As an owner of small island boas, I will throw my two cents in and add that you should do your research on the locale of boa -- some of them have adapted to very lean conditions, scarce food supply, and as such require much less food than a "normal" BCI or BCC. My kids will probably top out around 4' and I was told by one of the breeders (specifically Vin Russo) to feed them sparingly or else they will cease to be "dwarfs". I feed my 2-year olds two mouse weanlings every 2 weeks. That's not much, but it makes a little lump, and at two years old they're only about 2 feet. Adulthood, i.e. breeding age, is four years old, so 2' at 2 years sounds about right to me. I would much rather have a healthy snake than an obese snake.
Now, along that topic, what I would like to see is an "exercise schedule" for snakes! How often do you take them out and handle them, for how long, do you just hold them, or let them crawl around on the floor, or do you have a "jungle gym" for them to play on, etc. Great blog!
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Author Comment
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5/19/2010 1:11:29 AM
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EbonayiasGirl
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Agreed on the exercise part. This will sound bad, but I take mine out very sparingly right now...We're trying to take precautionary measures with our collection right now. But yes I totally agree. I would like to know myself what a good amount would be as far as handling. Once you get over so many though it gets harder but yes that would be a great topic to start :). If I had a better idea I would pitch in on that one but...as of right now, I don't :(. Thanks for the comments guys :)
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Assisted Answer
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6/5/2010 7:38:00 PM
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MegF
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I feel that most domestic snakes are fed far too often. After doing a lot of research, I've found that snakes are designed to have empty bellies at least part of the time. Having food in their stomachs constantly can lead to build up of bacteria. My vet agrees. My babies are fed every 7-10 days. I find with the ATB's that if I feed more often, their feeding responses are less than stellar. Species plays a huge part in how often I feed as well. Chondros are fed less often than other snakes. I find that boas and pythons in general have slower metabolisms and since I had one prolapse I took a good hard look at my feeding regimen. Up until that time, it was weekly. My females definitely mature at a slower rate, which I also feel is more normal for nature. My false water cobras are like cribos. They need to eat weekly or they get pure nasty. They also crap weekly and shed monthly which is something I normally only see in babies. They are a snake that moves, moves, moves....all...the...time! My snail eaters, being insect eaters, are fed weekly. All other adult snakes are fed every 2-3 weeks and are doing great. I might bump it up for gravid females, and for recovering females, but that's it. Since the snakes are not fed as often, they are more active. They are out hunting each night and this leads to better muscle tone in my opinion. People who say their snakes never move around and only hide are feeding too often. My cornsnakes, chondros, ATB's and all the rest are out all the time moving around.
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Member Comment
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1/25/2011 10:24:37 AM
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abi21491
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This question has had no activity for 14 days and will be closed by an administrator unless the original poster takes action. Recommended Action: Points awarded An administrator will select responses and assign points at their discretion. Original poster, please close this question out and assign points. If you have any further information in the resolution of your problem, please post it here so that others may learn from it.
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