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Q:
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Hybrids your opinion??
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Alright Guys and Gals I want to know what your opinions on Hybrids are? I think It's starting to get out of hand. I personaly am kind of mixed on them. I have a Superball Ball x Blood . That I inherited from a buddy that passed away. But I think it is starting to get out of control with this whole hybrids snakes from different continents. Woma Balls Carpalls. At least the damn Superball both snakes are from Africa. Its starting to get crazy I think the Burmball. I mean seriously theres no way in they would come in contact with eachother under normal circumstances Africa x Asia , Africa x Austrailia , Austrailia x Asia. I just think its weird. And not to tell you they are way overpriced now days. I remember being at a Flea Market in South Carolina this guy was Selling Rock x Burm for only like a hundred bucks. You see them on Kingsnake Classifieds they are going for thousands. It seems to me people are making them just for the money now days nto just accidents or whatever! Let me know what you think
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 7:28:26 AM
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Prometheus
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I think it is interesting that you bring up this issue but only seem to be focusing on the pythons. People have been making hybrids with corns/kings/rats for decades, so much so that they are common trade these days. Once upon a time there was a site called Frankensnake and all they did was hybrids, even had something obnoxious that had (I think) 16 different species in it. Looked like nohing more than an ugly thayeri...
Anyway, I think there are a lot of reasons people go in for hybrids. I am sure most people probably just do it because they can which I do not necessarily agree with but it does give people ideas for potential future breedings. And, like with any breeding effort, once an idea is out there then selective principles can be applied to get quality animals. I have no real issue with quality animals being bred for quality results. For example, the photo you have of the carpondro is, to me, a quality looking animal compared to some of the mutt ugly ones I have seen, and as such I do not take issue when I see animals like that.
As far as the prices... Low supply plus novelty factor makes for high cash value... If someone will pay high dollar then you might as well take the high dollar, nature of a free market economy. There will come a saturation point and then the price will drop. Once upon a time an amel corn would cost you a couple hundred buck (I know because I bought one a couple decads ago) but now you can get them for $10...
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 8:46:21 AM
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dalvers63
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I have no issue with hybrids - some of them are pretty cool. What I have issues with, at least in the carpet world, is the mixing of close species such as Diamonds and Jungles, or Coastals and any others, to the point where you cannot find a "pure" carpet python or at least not be sure that it is what it is represented to be. With the hybrids, it's obvious that a Carpall is NOT a ball python or a carpet python. With some of the IJ/Coastal jag siblings, you can't tell that there is anything other than coastal or Irian Jaya blood. This will lead to confusion and misrepresentation down the line.
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 10:32:33 AM
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Tea
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dalvers63 raises a valid point regarding hybrids. Whereas the issue you yourself raised, CHUNK, is not one I, personally, am particularly bothered about (we've done it throughout history, just look at the domestic dog and cat, horses, cattle, rodents, rabbits... you name it... people love to play god), I have to admit, the issue regarding the jeopardy to pure blood lines is one that bothers me. And again, this is a problem not just seen in snakes. The Scottish Wildcat and the Dingo are perfect examples... due to our own hybrid domestic animals being able to breed with and contaminate pure blood lines, the wildcat is now critically threatened in Scotland and the Dingo is suffering the same sort of damage elsewhere. While, in herpetoculture at least, it's unlikely that these prized hybrids are going to find themselves thrust out into the wilds of Africa/Asia/Australia, the point at hand is that, if the pure blood species do become threatened, we've diluted their captive gene pool with hybrids which renders a lot of it useless for captive breeding programs.
This may seem a little far fetched but, when you consider the problems that arise as a lack of genetic variation, it becomes a little more realistic. In a dwindling wild population lack of genetic variation as a result of inbreeding between reduced numbers results in overall weakening of evolutionary fitness and therefore reduces the likelihood of survival of the population on the whole. That is where pure blood captive bred populations/individuals become important. By introducing foreign pureblood genetic material into a population that is lacking variation it boosts the gene pool and therefore the chances of saving said population... so you see where i'm going with this. By breeding pure blood specimens to other species and producing mongrel progeny you are taking away part of the gene pool for that species. At this stage, yes it is far fetched because we're not talking about critically endangered species and this is the pet trade, not nucleus groups of animals set aside for conservation purposes... but all the same. The principles are similar and it is in that very remote, tiny aspect of hybridisation that my concerns lie.
Saying all of that though, so long as it is kept within the pet trade (which, obviously, it will be) and not allowed to contaminate genetic material of importance to conservation and, of course, the animals involved are bred together properly so as not to produce inferior young with all manner of congenital defects then I'm all for it. The results of successful and well executed cross breeding are often stunning to behold and the source of great enjoyment for many breeders and collectors alike. the fact that they cost so much money can only be a good thing in my opinion as it stops the majority of idiots who don't know what they're doing buying in animals, breeding them badly and cashing in on inferior results.
I could go on, but I won't ;)
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Accepted Answer
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7/8/2008 11:32:31 AM
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Kaiyudsai
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I think some of the breeding has gone too far...... Some of these hybrids do have probability of occurring in nature.....and that is one of the drivers of evolution...but to breed animals, that would have no chance of ever breeding in the wild, and come from totally different climates is pushing it too far...............for example......a retic X burmese python, or carpet X GTP --------it is not too farfetched that this may occur in the wild.............but to cross a ball python with a blood python and burmese(which has been done) is a little ridiculous.......... Just my opinion.....with all this genetic manipulation , pretty soon these animals will lose their original identity..............I also am not a big fan of the morph business........just my opinion
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 11:47:39 AM
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FyreFocks
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I have mive mixed views on hybridization myself. There are going to be problems down the line for sure. But right now its not so bad. And, lets face it, certain corn morphs wouldnt exist right now if it wasnt for the mixing of ratsnakes early on. The problem is that breeders arent doing this for a morph. They are doing to be different. At least with corns, once the desired trait was proven, the mixed breeding stopped and the animals were bred back again. I think if people continue to go crazy the way they are then there will be breeding defects down the line. I myself wont do it.
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 12:22:25 PM
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taenia
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Actualy, blood pythons are from Indonesia, not Africa. Just because they're in the same genus doesn't mean they're that close.... but I digress. I have a very large problem with the breeding of hybrids. I feel hat an important part of herpetoculture is maintaining species in captivity with a maximum amount of genetic diversity so that we can cntinue to captive breed these snakes into the future without harming wild populations. When you breed hybrids, you basically destroy that stock of genetic diversity and render that snake and its line harmful to captive breeding programs, not just neutral, like an unbred snake would be. The more we breed hybrids, the more we're going to have to keep going back to the wild for fresh blood to enhance the genetic diversity of our snakes, and the more we're going to have to put pressure on wild populations of snake, some of which are already on the brink. This applies not only to pythons, but to corn/king/milk crosses as well -- we should be focusing on maintaining the genetic diversity of our captive collections, not stunting it. But, unfortunately, a great deal of herpetoculture is focused on stunting our genetic diversity, whether through breeding hybrids, or through linebreeding to acheive morph traits -- a really dangerous practice, which can very easily result in bad immune systems, physical deformity, reduced lifespan, reduced size and reduced vigor. At the very least, hybrids don't have those problems to contend with on top of everything.
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 2:59:35 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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THat was my point....blood pythons and ball pythons are not from the same continent, but they have been bred together,
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 5:42:01 PM
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RB3067
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In my opinion these hybrid animals are nothing more than mutts and hold no value. Their production does nothing to perpetuate the pure blood lines of animals that may be endangered or no longer exist in the wild, which is what I believe is one of the main reasons for the captive propagation of reptiles. Furthermore, as most of us know there are more than a few unscrupulous breeders / dealers out there that may not be totally honest with regards to what the animal you are purchasing actually is. If these people want to see freaks, they should go to a circus sideshow. Again, just my opinion.
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 7:15:19 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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I would have to agree with you RB3067...................The bad thing is----the high market prices for these oddities will perpetuate this kind of breeding....as long as people are willing to pay top $$ for these animals...pple will continue to try to mix and match every species possible
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 9:48:03 PM
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MegF
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I dislike hybrids. They are not something that would occur naturally in nature for the most part. Corns and ratsnakes are the exception. Many of the offspring are proving sterile. I think they are just mutts. Carphondros are a perfect example. To me they are just ugly green tree pythons. There have been no fertile outcomes from carphondro X Carphondro yet that I know of. I really dislike that many hybrids in colubrids look like the pure version and are sold as such. It's unethical and dishonest. It irks me about as much as people who breed two dog breeds together to make a mutt and name it something exotic like a labradoodle and people actually pay money for it! It's just a mutt...can't be bred together and make more, can't be registered....It's fraud and I hate fraud.
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Author Comment
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7/8/2008 11:26:01 PM
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CHUNK
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Sorry Yall I was drunk when I posted this question and wasnt trying to just point out pythons I meant hybrids overall. And I do relize that I made a mistake about my super ball. Yes the bloodlines with morphs and hybrids are crazy. For example the Caramel Albino Ball Python. This morph has very bad problems with kinking but yet due to demand and high value they still breed them. Also Ive heard about many corn hybrids caught out in the wild due to improper caging. I think to months ago I heard about a gambino also caught out in the wild down in Florida. And thats a damn hot. Ive also heard about people mixing colubrids with hognose. Which we all no th hognose is a rear fanged animal that doesnt kil humans but what if we do accidently and dont take this serious make a super snake like a sci fi movie lol. Breeders are starting to get out of control Burms Rocks Retics Hots Boas are always caought in Florida all the time. I have a buddy down there that help cathches snakes all the time. They caught a KING Red Spitter and a Water Cobra all in one day within close proximeter. What if they were to start breeding together longshot here. Then we would have this Spitting Super King Cobra that your going to die cause of a non exsistant anti venom. And Meg F I agree with you on the labordoodle. But there is a good reason behind why they breed it it wasnt actually do to money. . Cross breeding of dogs is common to only do good things for drug sniffing dogs guard dogs I'm going o make and exception for when it comes to dogs because some use actually comes from them.
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Member Comment
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7/8/2008 11:56:11 PM
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FyreFocks
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The purpose of doodle dogs is so that people with allergies can own something close to what they want without the shedding problems that most dogs have. I cant fault people for that. But theres no reason to hybridize snakes.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 2:32:13 AM
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jake86
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the idea of a dollar overruns the morales and guidelines of keeping reptiles sometimes. certain species may interbred or hybridize naturally but some species have a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening, in my opinion, some of the morphs have a different look that can be what some people are looking for. i personally own a 75% ij/ 25%coastal jag, it's a halfway hybrid somewhat, now i would never compare it to a retic x burm or ball x burm, thats a whole nother mixture of genes that was never intended to mix. some people say that do the burm/ retics with something else hybrids to go underneath the laws that are restricting ownership of said animals. however there are still dwarves and super dwarves out there, so there claim for legal ownership are a front for money. in short, my opinion is keep it pure or at least realistic.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 5:02:10 AM
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MegF
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I still disagree about breeds like the Labradoodle. If you want a hypoallergenic dog...get a poodle or a chinese crested. There is no guarantee a labradoodle will indeed get the poodle coat. I've worked with a lot of them, and coat types vary greatly. Many of them get to looking like a dark golden retriever with a bit of curl. If you're going to breed a sporting dog, why would you breed two retrievers together. Breed a pointing breed and a retriever together and see if you can get one that points and retrieves if you want to improve the breed. I also challenge you to find too many hunters who actually purchase the labradoodle for a working dog. Every single one of the dogs I worked with were owned by "Sissy and Buff" as a status symbol. They are having them shipped down from places like Canada. I guarantee you they are puppy mill fodder. They are being represented as something they aren't. A registered "breed". They are nothing of the sort. As long as people will sell and animal claiming that it's something other than it is....I won't go for it. Hybrids make that all too easy to do. People were snatching up the carphondros when they were first produced. Now they are finding they can't breed them together to make more...only breed them to another green tree python. I would have proven fertility before I started opening my mouth...but hey...if you want to pay, it's all about the money.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 5:59:22 AM
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Tea
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Ditto MegF on the labradoodle. Even if that was the reason behind the crossbreed in the first place and even if there are decent outcomes from crossbreeding other species, what is the reason for all of the other 'designer dogs' that have sprung up all over the place? I recently worked at a book shop that sold a book entirely dedicated to these 'designer dogs'. Page after page of random crossbred mutts with ridiculous names and disproportionate price tags! Don't get me wrong, cross breeding does have its merits... but the above topic is definitely not one of them and nor is the whole designer dog fad... among many others no doubt. I do have to point out though, and I know I used the dog example myself in my previous post, that cross breeding domestic dogs and cross breeding the snakes mentioned above are two entirely different ball games. A labrador and a poodle, whereas they may look totally different, are in fact the same species and therefore, in a normal case, the progeny will be fertile... that's how we ended up with such a huge variety of domestic dogs in the first place... but strictly speaking, they are all Canis familiaris. The snakes in question are different species altogether. It's like breeding a horse with a donkey... you get a mule, but that mule ain't gonna make any baby mules. Cross breeding involving different species is very different to cross breeding between different breeds. Pairing different breeds of the same species will produce fertile progeny which is what happens with the dogs. And yes, that really is all about the money. All of it is.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 6:19:49 AM
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MegF
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You are correct. We actually are using hybrid inaccurately when it comes to dogs. They are really the same species. Hybrids result from the mixing of two different species.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 6:54:12 AM
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Tea
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I have to admit, my stance has changed slightly upon giving this some serious thought...
Firstly, I stand by saying that I personally find all this tampering with animals purely for profit and notoriety an outrageous practise. If it benefits the animals and you happen to get rich and famous then that's one thing... but to keep clutching at straws for the next possible crazy hybrid, well... there's far better, far more beneficial things you could be doing.
Secondly, the line between crossbreeds and hybrids appears to have gotten a little fuzzy and the results of each are totally different. So, with the hybrid thing in mind, from a conservational point of view, these animals are never going to pose a threat to existing gene pools as they are the results of inter-species mating which produces infertile young. This means these animals will not be able to pass on their hybrid DNA. It is, however, a waste of time in my opinion. Should any of these animals that are being used to create hybrids ever descend to endangered status, the last thing we want to be doing with them in captivity is wasting the females efforts on inviable, hybrid young with no use other than to make some dude a bit richer and some collector a bit more of a show-off.
Aaron raised a valid point in a brief conversation we had previously about locales. It's crossbreeding locales of the same species that is the worrying thing. Especially when there are very rare examples involved.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 7:58:25 AM
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mech
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i'm absolutely against hybrids. why create them when there are so many beautiful snakes already. and what happens if you have a hybrid and cros it back to the orriginal creature, after a while you will get snakes looking almost perfect like the non hybrid and you just get a dirty bloodline.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 8:57:35 AM
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Kaiyudsai
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But dogs are all canis familiaris.......different "breeds" really are just formed from mutations, and genetic deformities......And with dogs, you can see the problems associated with different breeds, due to mutation problems......dogs really arent hybrids unless they are bred to wolves...........as for snakes.....I had friends that bred hybrids, mainly between p reticulatus, and p. bivitattus....and they had offspring with deformities quite often, these were all destroyed...... and He did it only because he knew that he could sell 2 or 3 hybrids for more money than a clutch of purebreds.......you really have to blame the market in the end......Nowadays the focus on breeding is to produce the"first" new morph or or crossbreed in an attempt to gain noteriety and fortune.....it's really sad, but that's what the industry has focused on
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 9:03:57 AM
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Tea
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That's pretty much the point I was trying to make :)
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 12:37:52 PM
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Jeffriey
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Seriously who pays this kind of money for these animals?!? I walked into a local pet shop and saw a Bateater (Retic x Burm it's been there for awhile $$) Told the guy "Are you kidding that snake costs more than both my cars together". Same as a pair of Carpondros I saw on line (why anyone would mess with a Chondro is beyond me). I agree with all the comments everyone has made here, very good points, all I want to add is as interesting and facinating as this may be to me sometimes that someone has actually been successful in breeding two completely foreign species to one another, I personally wouldn't spend that kind of cash even if I wanted one. I can see myself spending a crazy amount of money on a high quality pure bloodline animal by a reputable breeder but the amount of funds being exchanged that encourages this type of breeding, I just don't get it.....
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 1:40:39 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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I can see your point Jeffriey...It is kinda interesting to know that these species do share similar enough genetics to be able to be compatible....It is probably an indication of distant relation between species....it would make for an interesting genetic study, under controlled lab conditions....by geneticists.... The Python Genome Project.....if you will
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 2:41:42 PM
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Derek Roddy
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People like to think that these hybrids are created to make money. When in fact they are hard to GIVE AWAY.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other...who am I to tell someone what to do with their animals?
Point is....there are plenty of them that are being offered for sale and not many of them are moving. The same ad's/snakes have been on kingsnake for years now..(in some instances).
Personally I feel.... some people THINK they are going to "rake it in" but, are highly disappointed when they don't and then end up getting out of the hobby altogether.
The other instance would those whop just wants to see what will happen.....and they have that right to do so.
It's interesting none the less....just not for my breeding plans.
D.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 4:21:56 PM
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Jeffriey
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The Python Genome Project hmm..It would be an interesting study just from the thought of looking back through evolution. I wonder if any genetic sequencing has been performed on hybrid animals. I don’t think there would be enough benefits to even consider it. I personally don’t know anyone who’s bought or is breeding hybrids. I’m not breeding any animals right now mainly due to space and won’t start until I move sometime in the near future where I can have more room to do so. I just acquired a package deal on a Jungle Carpet and a Brazilian Rainbow and the seller said if I ever decided to breed my male Chondro with this female Carpet that he’d be interested in one. So I think there are people out there that would purchase a hybrid if the investment wasn’t so high. I even have a diverse enough collection to try cross breeding but no reason to attempt it, financial benefits aren’t going to do it for me and like Derek has pointed out this isn't happening. It's true there are so many beautiful snake out there already which is why my collection keeps growing. Quick someone give me a reason to stop....
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 8:27:03 PM
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supreme serpents
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I think hybrids are like fruit cake. Two great ingredients, but put them together and ughh. Not my cup of tea.
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Member Comment
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7/9/2008 8:44:07 PM
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FyreFocks
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I cant think of any reason to stop Jeffrey. Theres so much you dont own. So much i dont own as well. Ill stop when i can no longer feed myself. But for now, bring on the snakes. If there were a reason to mix species in this industry, i would. But the work has been done for me. A few of my corn morphs started from hybridizing corns and rats early in the 80's. Thankfully they have been bred back through to corn lines only and i have good blood in my snakes as far as im concerned. But i fail to see any merit in carpondros and bloodballs. Why would anyone want a sterile snake. It seems like its taking our hobby/industry in a backwards direction. Like someone previously stated, not breeding is a nuetral point. But making snakes that cant breed is like walking backwards.
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Author Comment
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7/9/2008 9:53:58 PM
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CHUNK
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Many of you have brought up interesting points. there is some reason to hybrid snakes. Like the woma ball i believe was a female woma bred to a make ball in the first place to just make sure the woma was a python. There isnt to many hybrids that occur naturally Gambinos have been found to occur naturally and I believe the angolan ball was also but I'm not completely positive on the angolan ball. I just think it should stick with the original and get out of the bad bloodlines. My biggest example is the Caramel Albino Ball even the hets have some of the wrst kinks I have ever seen. We need to stop making bad herps on pure entertainment. Now when it comes to dogs i seem to like the muts. Russian airport scurity uses a special dog bred with wilddogs to help with them to fight bombs and drugs. So i have no problem with making muts... One of the topic question has anyone ever seen a POWERBALL. Its supposed to be a super form of the spotnose ball python But I can not find one picture of them. If someone has seen one or what not send me a message I'd really like to see it. Thanks.
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Author Comment
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7/9/2008 9:54:00 PM
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CHUNK
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Many of you have brought up interesting points. there is some reason to hybrid snakes. Like the woma ball i believe was a female woma bred to a make ball in the first place to just make sure the woma was a python. There isnt to many hybrids that occur naturally Gambinos have been found to occur naturally and I believe the angolan ball was also but I'm not completely positive on the angolan ball. I just think it should stick with the original and get out of the bad bloodlines. My biggest example is the Caramel Albino Ball even the hets have some of the wrst kinks I have ever seen. We need to stop making bad herps on pure entertainment. Now when it comes to dogs i seem to like the muts. Russian airport scurity uses a special dog bred with wilddogs to help with them to fight bombs and drugs. So i have no problem with making muts... One of the topic question has anyone ever seen a POWERBALL. Its supposed to be a super form of the spotnose ball python But I can not find one picture of them. If someone has seen one or what not send me a message I'd really like to see it. Thanks.
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Author Comment
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7/9/2008 9:54:02 PM
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CHUNK
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Many of you have brought up interesting points. there is some reason to hybrid snakes. Like the woma ball i believe was a female woma bred to a make ball in the first place to just make sure the woma was a python. There isnt to many hybrids that occur naturally Gambinos have been found to occur naturally and I believe the angolan ball was also but I'm not completely positive on the angolan ball. I just think it should stick with the original and get out of the bad bloodlines. My biggest example is the Caramel Albino Ball even the hets have some of the wrst kinks I have ever seen. We need to stop making bad herps on pure entertainment. Now when it comes to dogs i seem to like the muts. Russian airport scurity uses a special dog bred with wilddogs to help with them to fight bombs and drugs. So i have no problem with making muts... One of the topic question has anyone ever seen a POWERBALL. Its supposed to be a super form of the spotnose ball python But I can not find one picture of them. If someone has seen one or what not send me a message I'd really like to see it. Thanks.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 12:52:04 AM
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Jeffriey
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Fruitcake lol thats a good way to put it and that's all I need to hear Nate. Keep collecting more...
Here's a picture I found of a powerball http://www.boaconstrictor.com/index.php?news=yes&news_page=3. Looks like another image on VPI.com
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 1:07:14 AM
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Kaiyudsai
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Ya know I really dig fruitcake Nate.................:).......I'm probably the only person on the planet
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 1:18:09 AM
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FyreFocks
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Gross. But my father and grandfather enjoy it. They get it every year for christmas. I think it disgusting.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 4:36:28 AM
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taenia
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Just a note, this isn't Taenia, but rather Taenia's significant other.
The problem with hybrid-breeding is really, to me, the same problem that exists with much of the commercial captive breeding trade. The problem is, frankly, most hobby breeders and commercial breeders don't really know all that much about genetics. Sure, there are always guides on how simple Mendelian genetics (dominance, recessiveness, etc) can be predicted using a Punnett square, but this is a far cry from modern genetics. A few examples:
It is often assumed by breeders that a gene has a single effect; if you breed for, say, albinism, then the only affect on the animal is a change in color pattern. The truth of the matter is, such a mutation is caused by a systemic misexpression or deactivation of an important protein. In the case of albinos, this gene is tyrosinase. Tyrosinase is associated with the formation of pigment cells in the skin, which is why a lack of tyrosinase results in albinism. However, tyrosinase is a general catch-all enzyme for making various necessary chemicals in the body, including dopamine, a neurotransmitter. Experimental evidence suggests that albinism creates problems with adaptation to bright light, likely due to decreased function of the light receptor cells in the retina. I can't think that this could possibly be a good thing for the health of the snake.
The next issue is that genes do not float around by themselves. They are part of long chains of genes called chromosomes, which essentially act as non-independent groups of genes. So, if you have two genes on a chromosome together, one of which is a damaged tyrosinase gene (resulting in an albino) and one which is, say, a damaged FZD gene, you'll end up with co-occurrence of these two genes in a vast majority of your albinos also have severely messed-up retinas. Inbreeding makes this a lot worse, because it eventually ensures that you're going to have double-copies of every damaged gene in the animal's genome.
Another problem is something called gene dosage. Snakes, like humans, have two copies of every gene. However, instead of churning out a constant amount of gene product, they regulate this to make certain that they only make enough of the gene product without making too much. There are many ways in which organisms evolve to maintain this delicate balance; they sometimes shut off one copy, they sometimes have feedback loops, and a variety of other ways. When we mess around with the genetics of an organism, we sometimes inadvertently mess around with gene dosage.
Now, the reason this becomes important with hybrids is that, through the course of evolution, different species have evolved slightly different ways of coping with problems like gene dosage, and the genes don't always match up. The result is that there may well be gene dosage problems that we cannot foresee because we simply don't understand the genetic machinery of these animals very well.
A great example of this are lion-tiger hybrids. Depending on the sex of the male and female, you either have a tigon (female lion, male tiger) or a liger (male lion, female tiger). The reason why the sex of the parents matters so much is that lions and tigers control growth differently; in tigers, the genes that stop growth are active on the DNA of the male parent. In lions, the genes that stop growth are active in the DNA of the female parent. So, if two lions mate, their offspring all get one active copy of the growth-controlling genes. If two tigers mate, the same thing happens. In a tigon, the offspring has two active copies, and grows normally. In a liger, however, no active copies of the growth-controlling genes are present, and the animal grows to an immense size.
So, from a purely practical standpoint, hybridization could produce unhealthy animals, or it could produce animals which have completely unexpected problems. For instance, breeding together two dwarf retic populations could actually give you a full-sized reticulated python. You really never know.
Also, the snakes may not always recognize each other as mates. This is a problem in general when breeding a lot of snake species, because you see mate cannibalism. In the case where the prospective mate doesn't even look like a mate ought to, then you really have to worry whether one of the snakes will be injured or killed in the process.
A few other folks have already weighed in on the ecological problems associated with hybridization; given that we are looking at many species which are better represented in the captive trade than in the wild, we have a responsibility to keep those captive populations as viable representatives of the species or locality. Hybrids are not created "accidentally." No one wakes up one morning and finds that their chondro knocked up their carpet python. One has to make a conscious decision to make those hybrids. One also has to make a conscious decision to breed a hybrid back into a captive population. Both decisions seem, to me, to be exceptionally bad, but the latter is worse than the former. If you absolutely must breed a "carplot" or a "superball" or whatever they call them, fine. Hatch the one you desperately want, put in a cage, and enjoy it, but absolutely do not breed it back into the population. However, in the case of threatened or endangered species, or species for which the gene pool is poorly represented (this includes Angolans, bloods, savus, most chondro localities, Indian pythons, dwarf retics, and all Australian pythons), these snakes are rare enough as it is that all breeding efforts have a responsibility to preserve the genetic diversity of the group, and wasting that genetic diversity by hybridizing the animal is completely irresponsible.
I'm open to the idea that there exists, somewhere, a legitimate reason to hybridize certain snake species. However, all the hybrids I've seen bred in the hobby were bred out of hubris, ignorance, greed, or a desire to breed anything at all when an appropriate pair was not available. These are not, to my mind, legitimate reasons to do anything, especially not with living organisms.
That's my take on the matter.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 4:44:59 AM
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FyreFocks
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Give that man a cookie or something.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 5:08:14 AM
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Tea
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Well said! You've succeeded where I would have failed miserably... though I have a basic understanding of genetics and principles behind animal breeding... I fail miserably in the explanation side of things ;) So yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
"No one wakes up one morning and finds that their chondro knocked up their carpet python." Hahaha!
Interesting point about gene dosage and expression. The growth control thing in big cat hybrids has always fascinated me... but again... why do it?!
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 1:16:25 PM
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NCherper
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Different strokes for different folks. I understand the justifications given for not liking hybrids, and respect these views. I think that they serve a purpose not dissimilar from many of the extreme morphs found in most species within our hobby. They pique interest, have an aesthetic value (in good cases... ie : Jappondros), and allow interesting herp discussions such as this one. I disagree with the high pricing that goes along with hybrids though, if anything they should be less expensive than the two individual species they are created from, considering some are sterile, you don't know the phenotypical expression that may occur, or the genetic health problems they may exhibit. However, with that being said, let's be real, our animals are not going to be used for any repopulation efforts, so purists who argue that there is some sort of responsibility on the keepers to maintain genetic purity is ridiculous--nobody is going to get us to utilize our captive collections for to save a threatened/endangered species, that is the reason zoological parks and labs exist. It all comes down to what the owner wants to do, and if that includes seeing what happens between two random snakes...more power to them.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 1:47:03 PM
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natsamjosh
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I agree with Derek and NCHerper. As long as one is takes care of his herps properly and represents them honestly, it's none of my business what
they do. One thing I would like to add, however, is that the word "pure" is always thrown around, but what does it really mean? Keep in mind,
taxonomic classifications can and do change all the time, and by definition sub-species can and do "interbreed" in the wild. Taxonomy is a human construct
for which evolution and nature have no consideration. :)
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 2:04:09 PM
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taenia
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Taenia's SO again:
I really disagree with the "conservation is someone else's problem" approach. Conservation is all of our problem, especially considering that the captive trade has decimated or even eliminated entire species/subpopulations in the wild. A perfect example are Savu pythons (<i>Liasis macklotti savuensis</i>). We have a pair (CBB), so recognize that I'm not against the keeping of these organisms. At the same time, wild capture of these snakes has essentially eliminated the entire wild population. The same goes for many island boa morphs (e.g. Hog Island Boas), island pythons, etc. It's reached the point that herpetologists reporting new species wiith limited ranges have to obscure the locality information so that unscrupulous collectors don't destroy the wild population. I've heard at least one example of a gecko species from China which disappeared from the wild within a year of its description due to the herp trade. So yes, it is our problem, because we're causing the problem.
Additionally, the blood lines in zoos are fairly limited. When we look at genetic diversity in zoo populations, we find that it's nothing compared to the genetic diversity in the captive animal trade. If we want any reintroduced populations to be healthy, we need good genetic diversity, not an inbred population from one set of parents. Inbreeding does really bad things to a population, including the introduction of harmful mutations, and severe susceptibility to infectious disease. Tasmanian Devils, a highly inbred and highly endangered species, are currently dying from infectious cancer as a result of inbreeding. In most organisms with a sufficiently diverse gene pool, cancer is absolutely non-infectious. Not only are the blood lines limited, but so are the species and localities. I suspect there are very few Kayauda Island Retics in zoos. There sure are a hell of a lot in the captive trade, though.
As far as research labs go, most research labs are concerned with determining how best to go about conserving these organisms, but few actually have breeding programs themselves, and certainly not breeding programs large enough to rival the captive animal trade. Considering how little funding there is for conservation research concerning, say, <i>Python angolensis</i>, it should give us pause when people take the presence of this animal in the captive trade for granted.
We put stress on these wild populations. We increase that stress by demanding higher prices for CBB animals than wild-caught animals, which results in most wild-caught animals being purchased by beginners who lack the experience needed to deparasitize and coddle a stressed and possibly ill animal. Ball pythons are still imported by the thousands from Ghana, when CBB animals are widely available, because a WC animal is cheaper and presents a higher profit margin to the retailer. And don't even start me on the widespread availability of completely unsuitable WC species, such as Nile Monitors and Green Anacondas.
So we have a choice. We can either, as a group, take the opinion that we'll do what we want with our snakes, and no one's going to stop us from line-breeding for deleterious mutations and hybridizing every python in the Malay archipelago. Or, we can take a more responsible approach. I've met a few private breeders who work with Indigo snakes. Indigos are, by the way, absolutely astounding animals, and I can only hope that I'll have the opportunity to work with them someday. Indigo people are keenly aware that their animals are threatened in the wild (partly because they have to go through permitting on a regular basis), and systematically work with conservation biologists and conservation programs. They don't morph-breed. They don't line-breed. They don't hybridize. And you know what? They still have wonderful, beautiful snakes that impress anyone who looks at them. There's no need to hybridize a Florida Indigo to a Yellow-tailed Cribo to "see what happens" because a Yellow-Tailed Cribo is an impressive snake all on it's own, as is a Florida Indigo.
I'd like to see that attitude become more widespread. These are animals, not fashion accessories, and in some cases, these are very endangered animals. Given that we're lucky enough to have the resources and the experience to help the problem, and given that we helped contribute to the problem in the first place, I think we have a responsibility to do what we can to solve the problem.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 2:19:39 PM
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FyreFocks
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Bring on the cookies! Plates and piles on them!
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 2:20:00 PM
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taenia
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Taenia's SO yet again:
"Keep in mind,
taxonomic classifications can and do change all the time, and by definition sub-species can and do "interbreed" in the wild. Taxonomy is a human construct
for which evolution and nature have no consideration. :)"
I'm a systematic biologist. I'm quite aware of what taxonomy is and isn't.
In most of these species, we seldom see natural intergrades and natural hybrids. There are several reasons for this, including geographic isolation (there's no way in hell a Ball Python and a Woma will come into contact in nature), habitat partitioning (a Centralian Carpet lives in a very different environment than a Jayapura Chondro), differences in behavior, activity times, breeding cycles, etc. And we know quite well that there is little gene flow between these species because they LOOK different; they have unique and isolated genetic information which has evolved in that particular species. There are probably hundreds of genetically unique and genetically isolated populations of common boa, and we're losing most of them to hybridization. There are probably dozens of reproductively-isolated locality-specific subpopulations of
chondros, and they'll be gone in 20 years if we don't make a point to preserve them.
It's not that hybridization is a "crime against nature." It's that hybridization takes something unique and undoes thousands to millions of year of independent evolution. This prevents research on speciation and evolutionary patterns in these animals, it prevents conservation of these unique gene pools, and it removes the features which make this populations so unique. Where precisely we draw the lines for a species name may be a subjective decision, but the framework we draw those lines on is real, and the genetically-distinct populations we see are also real things. The idea that we shouldn't care about these because these snake are someone's personal property is sort of short-sighted and the idea that this has no profound and irreversible effects is simple ignorance.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 3:07:47 PM
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natsamjosh
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"This prevents research on speciation and evolutionary patterns in these animals, it prevents conservation of these unique gene pools, and it removes the features which make this populations so unique."
I guess we'll have to disagree on who is "responsible" for this and how to approach it. I own an eastern Indigo snake, and he's an incredible snake, and I have no plans to breed him. But I could see the BOTH sides of the argument for Indigos. I can see the argument to "crossing" them with Texas Indigos, for example. It depends on
how you view things. Some might rather see them "cross bred" with Texans than the other alternative - extinction. I'm not sure using Indigos as an example is helping
your argument. The downside of keeping them pure is that the gene pool is so limited. Even the hard core Indigo purists want to be allowed to capture wild specimens
to alleviate the inbreeding problems.
BTW, I still would like to know the definition of "pure." :)
I think it's silly for one to expect EVERYONE to agree with his/her opinion, so expecting snake hobbyists to ALL agree on this is unrealistic. Another issue I have
with the "purist" argument is that keeping snakes in a 4' x 2' box in itself is changing the snakes' genetic development. Over time they will change to adapt
to a completely different environment (ie, a 4' x 2' box). So it's not really the "same" snake anymore. And what's the ultimate goal here, to preserve sub-species so we can keep them in a box?
I think you are confusing issues here. No one wants to see any animals disappear from the wild. But expecting hobbyists to "save the day" is a bit unrealistic, imo.
You'd be better off lobbying for preservation of habitat, and I'd be right by your side in doing that.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 4:43:04 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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Natsamjosh....you bring up a good point........What is pure??? How many pple breeding snakes know that their animals are from the same stock... I've heard many arguements against losing wild bloodlines...and so on.....but unless they actually went out into the jungle and caught the snakes themselves then they really can't be sure of their locale.....I know this is past the hybrid discussion.... I gotten in several heated discussions about breeding retics from different islands together because the original bloodline will be tarnished...but honestly......with the way importation works......you really can't be sure where your animals come from......Now the industry has developed a standard for each locale, based upon "the look" of different locales....but I would love to see how accurate that really is...... Animals with large ranges of habitat possess different adaptations that can devolop into different mutations..... like said before...different genes may be turned on , or off....
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Author Comment
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7/10/2008 10:10:10 PM
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CHUNK
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Alright I have to roll up my pants on this subject its starting to get deep. LOL I really didnt think it would go this deep into everything but everyone bringing up a good point It just opens my mind to more questions that maybe we should inforce quidelines to everything.
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Member Comment
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7/10/2008 10:24:39 PM
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NCherper
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Kaiyudsai- You make perfect points
natsamjosh- I agree 100% with your post
I do not feel like "conservation is someone else's problem", I am however a staunch realist. As a hobbyist I understand that my role in conservation lies within the lobbying for native habitat preservation. Natsamjosh's point about our animal's captive environments perfectly points out why our animals will never be the same as the original imports that started our captive bloodlines. Through multi generational breeding these animals are no longer adapted to their native environments. Yes they flourish in our tubs/ boxes/ vivaria, but they are no longer the same as the original imported animals. Phenotypically, yes they are the same, but they aren't the same as the original wild population outside of their looks. So if anyone feels they are preserving a species in their bedroom/ basement/ reptile room, I commend them on the effort, but it is necessary for them to understand their preservation efforts are slightly delusional.
Why delusional? because I have yet to meet a single breeder/ hobbyist/ home herpetologist, whose animals were utilized for any type of restocking efforts. The strongest role we can play is through the education of the public on these animals native habitats, that is the only way we can save these animals we all care deeply about. The general public we wish to inform and empower could care less if an animal is 'pure'. To the masses, it is merely a snake, but if they can see the beauty and usefulness of snakes and reptiles then real conservation goals can be achieved. The idea that by keeping bloodlines of 'pets' pure is going to be a more effective means of conservation is is ridiculous.
There will always be multiple viewpoints on the role these animals play in our lives, and if living out a preudo-conservationist dream by keeping lines pure is the viewpoint some wish to take, well more power to them. There will always be a camp that subscribes to this viewpoint, so I guess everyone wins. However, I think we all should take the time to be real conservationists by informing and educating at every given opportunity, and whether these lessons are taught through a carpondro, Wall, Bateater, jagpondro, BredliXJag, or any other combo know that this is where the real victories are won.
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Member Comment
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7/11/2008 7:15:58 AM
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MegF
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I am one of those that breeds "pure lines" and yes, I can trace my animals back to the original wild caught Okeetee Hunt Club animals. The statement that our domesticly bred animals are not the same is not really true. If one gets loose, they absolutely will thrive if they are in an environment that supported them. If for instance my Okeetees were to get loose, they would hunt mice and get along in the wild the same as any other normal variation of the cornsnake. As far as restocking...it is illegal to breed and then turn the young loose into the wild. In order to restock, it would have to be done under special handling in a lab. This is exactly the point made about trying to breed frogs to restock what was killed by the fungus going thru them...introduced by captive animals getting into the wild population I might add. Even zoos currect way of breeding frogs or any other animal is not good enough to make it safe to repopulate with their stock. Intergrades and hybrids are two different things. Technically, when I breed my Aru type chondro to my Biak type, I'm breeding two animals that would probably never meet as their territories don't cross. However, they are the same exact species, albeit with different expressions of pattern, color and body type, but they are the same. Crossing a king and a corn, or a green tree python and a carpet are doing something that would never happen in the wild. It can be argued that carpets and green trees live in some of the same territories and potentially have the chance of crossing, but I would defy anyone to actually find a cross of the two in the wild. They are two completely different species....not almost alike like the corns and ratsnakes which for a long time were classified as a subspecies of each other. They do in fact breed in the wild, and crossed specimens have been wild collected. Nature knows what is natural and what isn't. She tends to make things not work right (sterility for instance) when you choose to mess with what is natural.
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Member Comment
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7/11/2008 6:09:45 PM
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Kaiyudsai
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THe more and more I read these posts, the more I start to see selective breeding(between different locales and such) as not much different then breeding hybrids...And I was one that wasn't for hybrids....... but basically it's ALMOST the same thing.not that I'd ever do it..I don't like the idea of producing deformed animals...... I've never been a morph fan, just out of personal preference... I think the wild types are more attractive then the "manmade look" that most of the morphs are getting..... but this will always be one of those topics that will always drege up controversy ........ I would love to get my hands on some nice Okeetee Corns though....have any suggestions for sources???? I like the Love bloodline
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Member Comment
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7/11/2008 6:39:57 PM
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MegF
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Breeding from different locals is much different from hybridization. Two of the same species, just living in different areas compared to two completely, genetically different species being mixed when they normally wouldn't. Hybrids aren't necessarily deformed, some are beautiful. I just don't care for that kind of messing around.
I have locality Okeetees available if you're interested. E-mail me.
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Member Comment
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7/12/2008 11:04:21 AM
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taenia
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Taenia's SO again.
"However, I think we all should take the time to be real conservationists by informing and educating at every given opportunity, and whether these lessons are taught through a carpondro, Wall, Bateater, jagpondro, BredliXJag, or any other combo know that this is where the real victories are won."
What can you teach with a hybrid that you can't teach with a naturally-occurring species?
I can think of a number of things I could teach with a naturally-occurring species that I couldn't teach with a hybrid. It's not entirely about convincing people that snakes aren't icky. It's also about convincing people that exciting organisms that have unique evolutionary histories and fascinating behaviors are worth going the extra mile to preserve in the wild. So in actuality, no, a hybrid is not as good for education as a naturally-occurring species.
Note that I don't place stock in the concept of "pure," and I can certainly think of utility in muddling with the genetics of organisms. Hell, I've worked with TRANSGENIC organisms, which is a big step above hybrids in terms of how synthetic the genome ends up being. My argument is not for "purity," but rather maintaining genetic diversity when we have it. We have genetic diversity. We should make conscious decisions to preserve that. I don't see herpetoculture as somehow losing a huge draw factor if people are working to preserve genetic diversity in Hog Island Boas rather than hybridizing them all into salmon boa lines.
As for the noncooperation between herpetologists and herpetoculturists, this is not due to a lack of important animals in herpetoculture collections, but rather because there is a pervasive feeling of mistrust between many of the scientists and breeders.
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Member Comment
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7/12/2008 11:10:08 AM
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taenia
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The SO again.
RE: Indigos
The concern with the Eastern Indigo is not that the captive gene pool is terrible. It's that Florida does a pisspoor job of protecting the animals. Developers get permission to drop a housing development or a strip mall right on top of prime indigo habitat and no effort is made to preserve habitat and/or animals in these situations. Most indigo keepers that I've met wouldn't advocate WC an endangered species, but a lot are infuriated by the fact that an animal which is so strictly protected in the captive trade receives almost no protection at all in the wild.
And there is no conservation rationale at all to hybridize Easterns and Texas. At all.
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Member Comment
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7/12/2008 11:22:33 AM
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Derek Roddy
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I know where a 14,000 acre indigo reserve is..... here in north Lauderdale.
Funny, I've not seen 1 indigo there! Haha.
Loads of racers though.
D.
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Member Comment
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7/13/2008 2:57:03 PM
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Magana559
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Wow EveryBody Is Not Happy With Hybrids But The fact Is We Hybrid Everthing Just Look At Our Beef And Crops.
I Think Hybrids Are Awesome! Just Look At The Woma Ball, Burm Ball, And Blood Ball They look NICE!!
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Member Comment
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7/13/2008 3:58:07 PM
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Tea
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The beef and crops things is a totally different kettle of fish with totally different, and just as dire, consequences. Hybridisation of cattle for the meat industry has led to breeds such as the Belgian blue which produces calves so huge, all of them have to be removed via caesarian section rather than natural birth which equals huge costs and huge stress to the mother. Hybridised and genetically modified crops pose a problem too in that cross pollination occurs, contaminating pure strains etc etc... it's a huge issue that is in now way shape or form 100% good. Basically, what it boild down to is mankinds penchant for playing god and bugger the consequences. Money (and, in the case of things such as notoriety within the pet trade, vanity) comes into it every time.
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Member Comment
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7/15/2008 11:30:23 AM
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Ophiuchus
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Ive seen this debate a million times, so I haven't read everyone's answers, but I will put in my $.02...
I generally don't like hybrids. I probably would never own one or attempt to create them myself. But as long as people are responsible and honest on the lineage of the animals they breed and offer for sale, I am not going to bash those people.
My major reservation on the issue is that people aren't responsible and are just going all "mad scientist" with it and trying to cross everything and anything just to "see what hatches" so to speak, or attempting to make money on somehting new and original. But in all honesty, most of the time, they're shooting themselves in the foot because few people want to spend thousands of dollars on a "mutt" snake, so there really isn't as big of a market for hybrids as some people think. I personally don't think its a big deal when people are crossing subspecies or localities, such as with the Lampropeltis getula clan or the Elaphe obsoleta tribe, but its these "crapalls" and "bat-eaters" that I'm most worried about.
However, one major reason Im not 100% opposed to hybrids is that it is possible that some may take off as perfect "pet" snakes. I know this is a stretch, but lets look at dogs for instance. Take the Golden Retriever; we don't call it a Irish Setter x Lab x Water Spaniel mix....we call it a Golden Retriever. Look how popular the breed is. Of course, thats 100s of years of breeding to get to a GR, but economy-wise, trying to market some of these hybrids isn't an absolute horrible idea.
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Member Comment
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7/15/2008 11:33:23 AM
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Ophiuchus
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Ive seen this debate a million times, so I haven't read everyone's answers, but I will put in my $.02...
I generally don't like hybrids. I probably would never own one or attempt to create them myself. But as long as people are responsible and honest on the lineage of the animals they breed and offer for sale, I am not going to bash those people.
My major reservation on the issue is that people aren't responsible and are just going all "mad scientist" with it and trying to cross everything and anything just to "see what hatches" so to speak, or attempting to make money on somehting new and original. But in all honesty, most of the time, they're shooting themselves in the foot because few people want to spend thousands of dollars on a "mutt" snake, so there really isn't as big of a market for hybrids as some people think. I personally don't think its a big deal when people are crossing subspecies or localities, such as with the Lampropeltis getula clan or the Elaphe obsoleta tribe, but its these "crapalls" and "bat-eaters" that I'm most worried about.
However, one major reason Im not 100% opposed to hybrids is that it is possible that some may take off as perfect "pet" snakes. I know this is a stretch, but lets look at dogs for instance. Take the Golden Retriever; we don't call it a Irish Setter x Lab x Water Spaniel mix....we call it a Golden Retriever. Look how popular the breed is. Of course, thats 100s of years of breeding to get to a GR, but economy-wise, trying to market some of these hybrids isn't an absolute horrible idea.
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Member Comment
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7/16/2008 12:53:17 AM
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Casey Clarke
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Totally against it... I echo everything MegF has stated. Very good arguments.
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Member Comment
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7/20/2008 1:37:30 AM
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FunkyRes
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My personal view - if the female is from a rare species, rare subspecies, or rare locality phenotype, then I think all attempts should be made by the breeder to find a suitable mate, to increase the captive population of the form.
Beyond that, unless the crossing is known to be detrimental to the offspring, I don't have a problem with it.
A species or subspecies is a man made construct, and it is a man made construct that undergoes frequent changes. What is considered a hybrid or intergrade today may not be tomorrow, and what is considered pure today may not be tomorrow.
I do think it is the responsibility of anyone working with crosses - either as a buyer or a breeder - to properly identify their stock as a cross.
For people who really want pure, the only pure animals in captivity are wild caught stock, the closest thing we have in captive lines are locality lines. If pure is what you want, buy locality animals from trusted sources, because a pure locality animal will always be pure locality, even if some study in the future re-defines the various subspecies or species.
That's my 2 cents.
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Member Comment
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7/20/2008 1:47:38 AM
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FunkyRes
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Ophiucus - I know a hybrid breeder back east, he has extremely high quality pure lines of kings and he has hybrid lines. From what he tells me, at the show table - his hybrids go for a higher price and move faster.
Hybrids seem to be a lot more popular at shows than they are on user forums. Not that money is a justification for doing it, just that they often do sell better than the pure species they come from.
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Member Comment
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7/20/2008 6:54:29 AM
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MegF
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Funky: A species or subspecies is not a man made construct. There are naturally occuring subspecies in nature. I don't have a problem with naturally occuring interbreeding or "hybridizing". cornsnake/ratsnakes have been interbreeding wherever their territories overlap for a long time and cornsnakes were for a long while, considered a subspecies of the ratsnake. They were in the Elaphe guttata classification until recently when they were placed in their own category of Pantherophis. I object to people who are breeding animals that would NEVER cross in the wild. That to me is just idiotic and purely for money...nothing more. The fact that so many of these end up sterile just proves how stupid it really is.
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Member Comment
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7/20/2008 7:56:36 AM
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FunkyRes
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It is a man made construct, and how we define them changes. For example - the California Kingsnake use to be no less than 5 distinct subspecies - California Milksnake (striped phase), Yuma Milksnake, Boyle's Milksnake, and the two Baja (nitida and conjuncta). When getula was described, it was based upon phenotype. Now they are all California Kingsnake.
What happens in a few years when researchers decide that the currently pure California Kings in Baja California are really a relic intergrade population between MBK and California Kings - as many currently suspect? Then any "pure" California Kingsnake that has nitida or conjuncta phase origin in them suddently becomes an intergrade.
There are many who feel MBK is really just a melenistic splendida - if nigrita is swallowed by splendida, then crosses between the two are now pure. Even further, there are some taxonomists who want to lump cali kings, MBKs, and Splendida into either a single species seperate from getula - or a single western subspecies.
Earlier this year, a paper was published suggesting a split needs to be made in Rosy Boas in California based upon some DNA analysis - if that split passes peer review, then some people with captive bred Rosy Boas who use to call them "pure" will now have hybrids.
Gene flow between subspecies, species, and even sometimes genus happens in the wild. Cross genus hybrids generally is very limited, but it happens. At least two wild crosses between Pac Gopher and California Kingsnake have been found, as adults. When those natural hybrids breed back to pure, 2 or 3 generations later you can not determine that they are hybrids. Nature already pollutes the gene pool in that respect - though it really is part of nature, and therefore not pollution.
In the past - the manmade construct for how we defined a species or subspecies was largely phenotype based. Now it is largely mtDNA based. In the future, it will be based upon something else, as scientists are starting to get crazy with their mtDNA splits (IE if you have a pacific treefrog of unknown origin, the only way to know what subspecies it belongs to is to do a comparative mtDNA analysis - how silly is that split?) so undoubtedly what is used to define what is what will change again, and probably several times.
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Member Comment
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7/20/2008 8:33:56 AM
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MegF
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I see...Semantics. I misunderstood how you were stating "manmade" If you mean how we interpret the species and classify them, then yes...all species and subspecies are "manmade". I would agree with that. Still doesn't change the fact that we are putting two creatures together that would never meet or breed in the wild.
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Member Comment
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7/22/2008 9:26:41 AM
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Sparkle
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Since this is an open forum, I'll throw my two pennies in. I love nothing more than an exquisite purebred. Though some of the crossbreeds are beautiful, one should not meddle unless they know their Punnett Squares! People fooling with "hey if we cross this with that we'll make lots of money" should be fed to a large retic. XD
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Member Comment
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5/12/2009 5:13:30 PM
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