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is it legal to fake a zip code??

it's legal to fake a zip code.

you're just contacting a state rep and senator,... you are the voice of the people, it is our right to do so.

My honest question: when does it end? Are we to be constantly attacked by legislation til the end of the US govt/time? Or does our hobby just go underground and we all become outlaws? Seemingly this is the way with a couple of my other hobbies (firearms and homebrewing to be specific).

It doesn't end... ever. If things get outlawed, then our fight turns to unoutlawing.

Until our nation undergoes a civil war, we're stuck with this government controlling every aspect of our lives that they can.

you're right... it really never ends. it seems like there's a continuous flow of new legistlation to fight.

Ugh. Indiana sucks. :/

Do these people have nothing better to do with their time?

Also, have we heard anything about Ohio?

Really??  Indiana??? - That's me....  Where the hell is the angry face in the emotion faces? 

In case anyone wants to send a message to Ms. Lawson directly:

http://www.in.gov/cgi-bin/legislative/contact/contact-lsa-2-5.pl?data=h001

Well she got my 2 cents worth, articulate as it was, I doubt she will be smiling when she finishes. (that is of course if she even reads it.) 

Just seems like the country and state has a lot more pressing things to be worried about fixing than this.  I also asked her what experience is with exotics or her defined "dangerous animals" and where she is getting her information from.  ARGH! 

Oh God, its spreading! All of this is crap! They should enforce rules that prevent irresponsible people from buying exotics, not just everyone. Most herp keepers out there love their pets and take excelent care of them. Just because some depressed moron in Ohio....ugh.

Remember If you do respond to them to BE POLITE  

The vulnerability of our nation to a small group of "representatives" is just repugnant. How dare they speak for all of us as a group. I agree, a lot of this is essentially due to that selfish man in Ohio. Tigers, Lions, Bears, certain venomous snakes, yeah, probably not the best idea. But Pythons?! And Boas?! I'm just guessing, but I'm pretty certain there are more injuries from dog attacks, and I'd go as far as to say even wild animal attacks annually than there has been in the history of the United States from non-venomous domesticated snakes. And really what do they expect the present owners of Pythons and Boas, etc. to do? Take them in the back yard and do an "Ol' Yeller?" Being from Indiana, am just scared. This is out of control. I really hope everyone steps in. Just because you're not from Indiana, or Ohio, etc. does not mean your state won't be next!!!

Oops, I meant FATAL ATTACKS FROM NON_VENOMOUS SNAKES***

See I have to disagree with the way they've drawn up the ban on tigers, lions, bears, etc.  I think that certain species should require a license and shouldn't be for sale at the local pet store, but I don't want them to tell me that I can't have a pet tiger, even if I have the appropriate environment and everything, just because I'm not a sancuary or a zoo?

If you want to know the numbers, I acutally have found them and I can look them up, but the top killer of humans that is animal related is bees, then dogs.  I believe in the last 10 years venomous snakes have killed 56 humans (I have to double check that number, but it's close).  Bee were over 800 and dogs I think were around 500.

I'm also curious, is there a petition to stop this bill on www.change.org? If not there really should be. If someone knows about it please contact me. If no one has put together a petition for this yet, I'll see about having a friend who's an author who can put one together much more eloquently than I create one with my help, and the help of anyone who wants to make some statements, input, etc. Please, if you want to be a part of this, do your research, and be factual. Thanks! I know I through out some personal statements that may or may not be true in my emotionally driven statement above, but I'm prepared to do the work to go into this if no one else has or will.

Here's 2 I found:

http://www.rexano.org/Statistics/Constrictor_Captive_Snake_Fatality.pdf

http://scark.org/docs/Animal%20Related%20Fatalities.pdf

And that's my bad, it was 846 other specified, 533 for bees, and 208 for dogs.  Still compared to <.5 deaths a year by non-venomous snakes, I think it's pretty obvious what's more dangerous.

Ok, that's a lot to digest and I had a busy day today.  The first thing that jumped out at me was that you had to use an Indiana zip code.  I don't think that should be the case.  People in other states should be allowed to say how that bill might effect them.  Also, if these messages came from other states, it might make more of an impact - the legislature might realize that the full bill has gone beyond the borders of just Indiana.

In that same breath, no one but the citizens of Indiana have a right to vote on same.

That being said - use an Indiana zip code and send it to the senator.  After that, you might want to send a letter from the state you live in condeming the bill.  Granted, your name would have to be different on both accounts, but if enough out of state correspondence was received, it's possible they may take notice.

I'll read the statutes tomorrow if it's slow :)

Freaking Indiana - and I'm a softie for The Colts - feh.

Hi, ya'll.  I'm new to the site.  I caught this blog off of facebook and since I'm in the fight at a national level and here in South Carolina, I wanted to encourage you to get active.  To call your local congressmen & senators and voice your position because there are two things that you need to understand that are extremely important: 1)  There are a great many of us Herp Owners and that provides us with a voice to be reconed with.  As consituents, you need to make you State Representatives aware that anyone seeking election will be declined your vote if they intent to advance this type of Legislation.  2)  We, as Herp Owners, have an obligation to become educators and teachers.  It is important that we take every opportunity to dispell the misleading propoganda and replace it with fact, because people tend to over-react and destroy what they don't understand.  Remember, we're dealing with "reactionary politics" initiated by people who are "scared" by all the bad press that has been generated exactly for that purpose: TO SCARE THEM!          

This is scare-tactic propoganda and while it is untrue, it originates from the Everglade problem.  Here are some uncontroverted facts one should consider to reinforce your argument to prevent State and federal governments from inacting this type legislation.  None of the proposed species subject to this ban hybernate and in order to survive MUST live in tropical climates year round.  The Southeastern states identified in these type articals do not enjoy tropical climates year round.  Each of these species is highly susceptable to colds and Upper Respitorial Infections and exposure to cold temperatures will kill them.  This is the reason why there has not been a natural migration of the South American species (e.g., Redtailed Boas) to North America.  A sustained cold snap in Florida will rid of us this problem naturally.  Left to her own devices, Mother Nature will solve this problem.

With regard to some of the other reasons articulated, it is a fact that more people commit suicide, die from car accidents, or are killed by the flu each year than Herp Owners are injured or killed by these species.  Herp owners of these exoctic pets stand a better chance of being hit by lightening or dying in a plane crash than they do being seriously injured or killed by their pets.

It is the responsibility of every Herp Owner to act in a responsible manner to assist in preventing these bans and their unjustified governmental intrusion upon our rights and liberties.  Patrick Henry said it best: "Guard with jealous attention the publuc liberty.  Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.  Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force.  Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."  In his speech of 1784, Edmund Burke warned us that  "the people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."  It is our numbers as constituents and our ability to educate others so that they don't believe the delusion of the false proganda they're hearing that is going to turn this around.  So it's up to every Herp Owner to become advocate, educator, representative, diplomat and emissary.  And the foregoing is my ten cents worth.

Solution : Riot er....vote and get these mucklucks out of office. There worrying about puddinging pets what about pedophiles, rapists murderers, These politicians deserve to have there pension removed, and thrown in jail.

I agree with the rioting. Voting only matters if the other options aren't just as bad. Politicians are all scum, none of them are in touch with their constituents. 

Can someone develop a well written, very eloquent and articulate form letter for us out-of-staters to send to Rep. Lawson? It is so cold here that I can't think think straight.

Give me tomorrow - I'll see what I can come up with.  I'm somewhat ok at letter writing.   I need to read the actual statutes before composing any letter at all.

What I find very stupid, and I think would be valuable to include in our letters is that according to the U.S. Geological Survey report on the nine non-native giant snake species which they consider to be invasive or potentially invasive, all of their data concludes that none of those species could survive in the climates of Ohio or Indiana, and that these areas would be too cold for the snakes.

I think people should have to register their snakes and possibly microchip them so that if an irresponsible person decides to let their snake go in the wild, they can be tracked down by the snake's microchip and records. Also, if a snake gets loose, they can be returned to the owner.That way, the right people will be prosecuted rather than the entire reptile keeping community being condemned. I would gladly pay the 15 dollars or whatever for each of my snakes if it meant that it would protect them in the long run.

Emily, if you would like someone to bounce ideas off of or anything, shoot me a message. I'm working on my own letter right now.

Anna, while I support the first paragraph of your comment, anytime you start talking about giving government control, like microchips amd prosecution, I'm your opposition.  Next they'll be putting people in prison for irresponsibly letting a snake go.  Prisons aren't the end-all solution we turned them into.  Liberty and Freedom should never be minimized.  When we incarcerate someone, it should only be for crimes "malum in se" (meaning crimes that are morally wrong and repugnant by their very nature) and never "malum prohibitum"  (meaning crimes created and prohibited by legislation).  This is the type of madness that started Prohibition in the '20's, has kept us in 50 years of an unsuccessful war on drugs (with 50 years of misery to how many millions of families?) and is the root of our present problem with the legislation were facing.   No matter how well intented, you can't legislate stupidity.

Anna REALLY?? 

give an inch they take a mile.

There going to have to kill me for that inch.

USGS shouldn't do live animal studies anyway.....aren't they suppose to eat rocks or something?

@ Firefighter, I see your point, and you're right. Trust me, with a dad in jail most of my life I'm not a huge fan of the prison system. I also like you're ending line about legislating stupidity. 

I didn't consider the government taking it too far, which they deffinitely would. And God knows what their standards for care would be, either too harsh or not enough. 

I just don't see how this will end otherwise though. These people are beligerent, idiotic, overexaggerating, bull headed fools that don't know the first think about snakes other than what the studies are telling them. And as I pointed out, they're not reading those studies very well! As much as I would like to personally rip them a new one, this system is...how does that saying go...two wolves and a sheep deciding on what's for dinner. I can't help but feeling that if we don't at least offer them a nice juicy steak to distract them, the war will just keep waging and unless that sheep's got a rocket launcher, its not looking good. We can meet them with likewise bull headedness for so long, but eventually, these people will prey on the public's fear and turn the masses against us. I worry that there won't be enough herpers to stand up and fight their hoards of self righteous, wannabe animal activists.

For now, we can beat them with facts and numbers, and appeal to the president's unwillingness to start a ruccuss, but does it not seem imperative that a solution is agreed upon by both sides?

By the by, if bacon hits the fan, is it safe to just move to Canada, or are they against big snakes too? I like to have a plan Z just in case...

Hahaha Patrick. I thought so too. They did write a pretty little 300 page report, though. Very nice amo for using their words against them... Lots of 'Its possible, but improbable' all in the right areas.

Anna, don't minimize your USGS contribution.  It is exactly that type of information and its contribution that we need to win this.  This is a fact that can't be controverted and when applied logically extends to all of CONUS.

At a more personal level, I hurt for you and your Dad.  You see, Kido, I spent from July 27, 1991 to December 27, 2005, incarcerated in the Federal Bureau of Prisons for violating one of their crimes "malum prohibitum".  And had it not been for a decision rendered by the United States Supreme Court earlier in 2005, I'd still be in prison now.  So, at a grass roots level, my fight comes from having been there and done that with the service of a 16.8 year sentence (essentially a "LIFE" sentence).  Nor am I a "paper advocate".  I've practiced what I preach and know what I'm telling you is honestly genuine.  If we all don't band together and let our numbers voice our constituent displeasure to this type of legislation with facts like the very same you've contributed, you can believe they'll turn this legislation into a crime "malum prohibitum," make it punnishable by stiff prison sentences, and take some other Dad away from their daughters, just like they did me to mine for my Second Amendment violation. 

Oops!  Let me restate part of that last sentence.  It should read: "for my violation of the 'commerce clause' and government's Second Amendment intrusion.

" No matter how well intented, you can't legislate stupidity."

THANK YOU!!!  I've been saying this for years in response to all the (well-intentioned) reptile owners who:  

   1) sujpport/advocate "compromise legislation" as a response to deceptive, bullying tactics by politicians and AR rights groups that are proposing bans, and/or

 2)  sujpport/advocate "regulation" based on the concept that citizens are too stupid or irresponsible to correctly care for certain species.  

Regarding the latter, isn't that the mentality that we are trying to fight???  Regarding the former, isn't it simply cowardice to compromise with a bully that you know is not acting/negotiating in good faith???   I know may sound like an arrogant jackass by saying this, but we don't have a chance in hell of defeating these bans until more Americans start acting/thinking like Americans rather than scared, selfish children who only want to protect hobbies/species that interest them.   This isn't about snakes or reptiles.  It's about an out of control government that wants to control every aspect of our lives, including the pets we want to own.

No, Ed!  It is about ignorance!  Plain and simple.  Other than Herps, the great majority of Americans are afraid of snakes.  Remember, it was the Serpant that tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden?  And as technologically advanced as we have become in this the 21st Century, the average person is still afraid of the dark.  It's "Primordial".  The indiviual person can be reasoned with, but in masse, people become a fear based mob that can't be reasoned with when they stampeed.  You want a prime example:  look what they've done in this country since 911!  Do you think, for the slightest instant, that our founding fathers would have allowed government to cordoned off our Courthouses and Public facilities with armed secuirity?  Do you think they would have allowed their transportation facilities to be turned into armed enclaves like our airports have become?  Do you actually believe that our founding fathers would have allowed the Brady Bill or the Patriot Act or the Hobs act or the National Firearms Act of 1934 to pass?  I think if Benjamin Franklin were alive today, he would have said, "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!"  Just like he did 500 years ago!

The only way we are going to beat this is to educate the public, teach them the truth, show them that they really have nothing to fear and that they are being lied to.  Just like they were when they were told that Saddam Hussain had Weapons of Mass Destruction!Then make our voices heard with our representatives and make sure they understand that they'll get one less vote if they approve this type of legislation.  

Not sure where we are disagreeing.  Part of "acting like an American" is to recognize when you are being lied to.  Anyone with 1/2 of a brain can figure out that there is no reason to fear snakes.   And I agree with you about educating people.  In fact, I've challenged everyone on iHerp to set a goal of doing several educational presentations a year to schools, museums, neighborhood schools, etc.

Anyway, that still doesn't change the concept that "you can't legislate stupidity" and the idea that compromising with dishonest bullies is a bad long-term idea.  So again, I don't see where we have any disagreement.

Gotta tell you, Ed, when you put it like you just have, we have no disagreement.  It's the positive slant that'll get me every time! (And probably a good many others!)  Remeber, we have to be "emissaries"?  And we're gonna catch a whole lot more people with sugar than we are with vinegar!  Presentation is everything!  If we can put a positive light on our plight, people will listen to what we have to say.  And that's what it's all about: getting people to listen to us so that during the course of our conversations we educate them to the facts and show them that they actually have nothing to fear.

Oh, and btw, regarding the fear/hysteria about snakes and large pythons, that is being propogated by our own employees (ie, taxpayer funded "scientists".)    Even after every piece of real-life evidence (in the wild and in controlled experiments by themselves!) has shown that Burmese pythons cannot survive outside of the Everglades, they are still trying to advance the notion that Burms can realistically take over 1/3 of the United States.  That is not acceptable.

This was a study I found when writing a paper about this for one of my classes:

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/02/3243390/pythons-in-everglades-a-low-risk.html

Well, I don't necessarily agree with your last post.  I tried the nice guy approach (since I am a nice guy. :) ), but that doesn't seem to work either.   I even offered to donate money to reptile rescues for every person that sent me pics of a presentation they did.   I think I got a whopping 5 responses.  I think that may not only be due to laziness, but not everyone has the time to do presentations.  Even so, as much as I advocate doing presentations, do you really think that there are enough of us to educate the entire public and appease their fear of snakes, especially when (see my above post) academics (with the "Professor Emiritus" title) and huge gov't agencis like the Dept. of Interior are telling them Burmese pythons can take over 1/3 of the country?  Again, that goes to my (our?) original point that we have a government that is out of control!   So from what I can tell, we are completely on the same page.

Actually, Ed, the Burms in the Everglades are on borrowed time.  Durring the last cold snap, thousands of them and other tropicals like Iguanas and monitors died.  Left to her own devices, mother nature will solve the problem herself.  Remember, our indiginous reptiles exist comfortably in colder climates.  In fact, many a rattler or cottonmouth has opted not to hybenate after the first frost.  I respond to venomous snake calls here in the Low Country of South Carolina right up until around the late part of November and early December.  They're in the ground now, but they haven't been there long.

My point is, how many non-herps know this?  I answered over 100 venomous snake calls this summer for DNR and local police departments.  Do you want to know how many of them were actually venomous?  One!  Out of over 100 calls, I actually caught 1 Copperhead (She was a big bitch!  Almost 5 1/2 feet long.  And I have never, ever seen a Copperhead this big!)  But what im,portant here is that everybody who called, called because they saw a snake, and any snake they see is venomous, and they are afraid!  That's the type of ignorance we face.

You're lucky I didn't see your post, Ed.  We (Charleston Critters Rescue) could have used the donations.  We did three church socials this summer.  They each pitched us a tent and hanging from it's rafters were three of my big ones:  Two Redtailed Boas, 8 and 10 feet long perspectively, and my 17', 130lb Burm, Rasputin.  You can't imagine the affect we had when people would touch Ras and he would arch his back into their hands to enjoy the affection!  Or how they responded when I'd blow raspberries on his back and he would respond by laying his bottom mandible across my mouth to get more "kisses" on his throat.  People have been convinced by shows like Animals Gone WIld, that snakes have brains the size of peas and don't display affection.  Well, I'm here to tell you that that is bullmuckluck and I have video to prove it!  But unless we can show them and teach them that this is true, we're not gonna win this fight! 

CURRENTLY THERE IS NO PETITION ON WWW.CHANGE.ORG TO STOP THIS BAN, IF ANYONE WANTS TO HELP ME COMPOSE ONE, PLEASE EMAIL ME @ visceralrepulsion@yahoo.com. I WILL GLADLY LOOK AT YOUR EMAILS AND CONSIDER THEM IN THE PETITION THAT IS TO BE WRITTEN. I have a friend who is a writer who will gladly help me compose a proper letter, with my guidance, and the input of everyone who wants to help. Please inlcude factual statements by doing your research, do not be overly emotional, and be polite. I will post the link on here, in a blog, and it will be searchable on change.org when it is finished. Trust that you all will be the first to know, and that I will post and create as many ways for you to be able to find the petition to sign as possible!!! Now, I put my trust into you all to ACT by voting, writing letters, putting the word out, posting to your blogs, forums, and Facebook, to get the word out to the public, friends, family, co-workers, etc. I'm feeling so misanthropic right now after posting to Facebook and only getting like 3 responses, only one re-post, and literally no one saying they'd write a letter or sign a petition. I really hope there continues to be an overwhelming response from you all on here, other sites that support animals, and especially the herp community.

What kills me is all the crap on cable TV that feed into public paranoia. Since Adam and Eve people have been preached to fear snakes. Aside from religous beliefs amazingly a high number of people who are black or African Americans also have this built in fear of snakes. About a month ago my friend actually shot a DeKay's Snake with a gun. There was actually a big chip of concreat knocked out where he shot an 8 inch snake about the width of a pencil. He feels it was justified for his own safety and I just laugh and think he is crazy. But, at the end of the day his fear is very real...

The crazy thing is I don't think anyone has put any hard thought into what happens if a national ban were upheld. Animal shelters and non profit resuce groups are already spread thin from the economy. And, dog lovers best be paying attention as well because the next lists might include larger breed canines.

And finally, if the Government took more time to care for its mentally ill persons the events in Ohio may have been a mute point. I think the suicidal person was confused and actually felt like he was setting the animals free.

Perhaps we should organize something similar to the million man march on the white house with Reptiles. I also really like the consensus ANTI VOTE idea for anyone who opposes our rights to keep reptiles responsibly.

There is also a common misconception that reptiles and amphibians don't feel pain. Just because they can't scream or cry like a bird or mammal when injured doesn't make this rumor true!

Right on, Brett!  I raised the Serpant in Eden issue several blocks up at around 9:35 this morning.  Your points are well made and well taken.  And its just your type of enlightenment we need to spread to non-herps.. Because if you can get it from an independent source, they most surely can get it from you!

One thing that drives me nuts is when people try to say the bible says snakes are evil.  I'm very religious and I can quote you a lot of scripture that shows otherwise.  Aside from all the scripture let me ask you something, if I dress up like you and commit crimes, who is now guilty?  In that scenario I would be.  So if the devil took the form of a snake, are snakes evil or the devil?  Use this arguement and people tend to shut up.  I just can't stand people who say they are religious, but then say snakes are evil.  1 it never says that in the Bible, 2 there are several quotes that show otherwise, 3 that logic makes no sense (see scenario).

Tiki, remeber the Bible verse that says the "lowest from of creature crawls upon its belly"?  Unfortunately, this is just the type of ignorance we have to overcome.  Prejudice and Bigoty comes in all forms and, as I'm sure you're aware, bouth are espoused by ignorance.  But there's hope in this because we can educate the ignorant.  It's the "stupid" we're not gonnaa be able to do anything about!

Hey, guys, take a bite out of this one, but try not to get mad!  USGS Release: Salt Water Alone Unlikely to Halt Burmese Python Invasion (1/4/2012 1:00:00 PM)

Aren't we still fighting wars and have drug lords killing innocent people? And there worried about us keeping are pythons and boas.

government = muckluck sandwich

It's a common and widespread misconception that the snake was the evil-doer in the bible in the Garden of Eden. The animal was a only called a "serpent" of some sort. The serpent only became a snake after its sins, by losing its legs as punishment. Condemn the lizard then shall we? Burn the lizarrrrrrrd! It's a witch!. True story.  

On another note, I'm in collaberation with my writer friend to compose a sample letter and petition on change.org.  They will be posted ASAP. Keep up with this blog, my blogs, or email me a request for them at visceralrepulsion@yahoo.com. They'll be posted soon. Thanks!

I love this grassroots movement... thank you Brandi!!!

Also, make sure it's easily copy/pasteable for Virginia... because that's domino #3 which has introduced a bill.

It's just going to keep coming.

muckluck sandwich is right, Craig. I love America, but I'm growing considerably less fond of the people running it by the minute.

Brandi, glad you're doing that. I was putting one together, but still working on the written part so I will drop it if you're going to do that. 

Also, I'm working on getting together a website with all the links to the studies and reports, the bills and petitions, how to contact the legislatures and important people of now THREE states, plus the whitehouse among other things, so we will have all of our resources in one easy place. I figure most of the time educating ourselves about this is spent looking for all that crap, so why not put it all in one place? I'll post a link soon

For one reason or another I was not "allowed" to have snakes.  At nearly 45 years old I got my first.  And now there are "people" trying to make laws that say I am not "allowed," ???  This is getting more and more irritating!  I understand their are people, for whatever reason, that are terrified of snakes and I hate that for them.  But all they need to do is not own any and stay away from them, not tell me I can't have them.  And what is even more angering is the "crimes"  they should be coming down hard on,  well let's see, rape a child get out on parole in 5 years, steal a million from a company and do 20.  I know the years may be off a bit, but I've seen it.  Guy raped a girl, did 18 months, came to La. registered as sex offender, got job as cab driver, lured a 12 year old boy (he was in step daughters class) out of the house by texting him pretending to be a girl from school, raped and killed him.   Maybe I am the one ignorant....Cause I just don't understand how banning certain snakes from ownership gets more attention than the true issues of this country.  And    When God created the earth and all the living creatures on it "He looked at it and said it was GOOD!"  That means everything!  No where does it say in the bible that He changed his mind.  Nothing God creates is evil.  Animals behave the way they were created to behave they were not created to be evil, just to surrvive.  The only evil thing there can be is man, God gave us a will and a choice.   If I hear one more person say my snakes are evil or that I am evil I may throw up on their shoes...

No problem guys. I grow more and more disturbed by these types of bans daily. Bans like this are driven by fear, ignorance, and hate propaganda. Educate yourselves, and return the knowledge by educating others. The number one phobia in America is snakes. This visceral repulsion needs to be uprooted before it grows any further. I think that site you're working on is a fabulous idea, Anna. As you were saying also, Anna, I'd be compliant to reach a situational medium with "the man"  and subject myself to classes required to own certain snakes.Infact, I think that's a miraculous idea. There are some states that already require classes to earn a license to own. Why not Indiana, Ohio, or Pennsylvania too? I know if we give them an inch they will take a mile, BUT at this point we'll be lucky to have an inch left after this ban is through. No sympathy here to their plight, just realistic inferences. Certainly the death of multitudes of animals, and the broken hearts of their owners aren't necessary in the personal quest of a few "representatives" to outlaw "dangerous" animals. Do they really expect us to believe their bullmuckluck? That something like a Sand Boa (for example) is of any threat? The propaganda hate-machine needs to be derailed. I'm sorry, but I'll probably never be fully convinced that the average Joe Schmo should own a tiger. Tigers are not domesticated animals. They are far more dangerous than non-venomous snakes. They require a ginormous amount of upkeep from their owner, which cannot be provided by your typical citizen. I could say, "Well, when Joe Schmo wants to own a tiger, he should have to pay a hefty tax, or ownership fee, and supply his tax returns, and W4's to meet requirements by the state." However, the majority of tiger owners are pretty well off in their pockets, but unfortunately they are too selfish, ignorant, or heartless or whatever to take proper care of their animals even with their substantial financial self-worth. This has been documented again and again. But sadly, it starts with tigers, snakes, etc. and it ends in certain breeds of dogs, for instance. What's next? Who's next? The potential for this snowball to gather way too much momentum is unfathomable.

 I'm not sure when this petition and letter will be done, because my writer friend is out of state this weekend, to which I wasn't aware. I will keep you guys posted though. I really hope it meets all of your standards, expectations, and that you feel it properly represents you as a citizen of Indiana, or the U.S. in general. I love all of the blood, sweat, and tears you all are putting into this topic. It needs it!!!

Brandi, you need to examine your reasoning!  Why would you want to subject me to any regulation at all?  This isn't government's business, but to have want you want you're willing to compromise by supporting government regulation through licensing.  The government has no business in this aspect of our lives.  You know what, why don't you start a program where you have to be licensed to become a parent?  Before you can have a child, you have to go through a course and get a license.  And until you qualify you can't have a baby!  It's your kind of mentality that has us licensing everything in this country!  Then maybe we won't have so many idiots born!

Let me tell you a true story.  Once upon a time there was a guy who loved to snowmobile in Minnesota.  He'd do it every chance he got and go everywhere he could.  Then, one day, after several days of beautiful weather, the avid Snowmobiler takes his snowmobile out on an iced-over lake, crashes through the melted ice and dies.  The result?  Because of this idiot, legislation was passed that now requires people who want to operate a snowmobile to complete a course and get a license before they can do so.

You can't legislaste stupidity!  So, please, if this is what you're proposing, stay out of our fight for our right to do what we enjoy unencumbered by government intrusion, government regulation and the penalties they'll impose for non-compliance.  We don't need your type of help or want your compromise!  "They that give up essential liberty to obain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."  (Benjamin Franklin)  Government needs to stay out of our lives and what we do in the privacy of our own homes!  Period!

Whoa, buddy. Someone is a little hot and bothered. I think you're wrong, I think you do need people like me. Because it's people like me who are acting, not spouting their mouths off about "anarchy", and telling people that are helping they're not wanted because their opinion differs from yours. You preach about "the government" being such a dictatorship, yet you're condeming me for not thinking as you do? Contradictive? YES.

Are you really expecting me to agree that it's silly for people to need a course to operate a snowmobile? A snowmobile is a powerful and fast mechanism that can cause death, just like a car. By your logic little Bobby at 15 years old and with no experience on a snowmobile or a car should be able to hop on one and ride off. Really? Are you joshing me? You think I'm the ignorant one? But I actually do think you're right about something though- Yes, I do think people should be required a license to become parents. If that were the case, we wouldn't have so many unwanted, unplanned, abused,  and neglected children. Also, children don't grow to 12ft. and attack babies and housepets in their sleep. I know these kind of events don't happen often, but how many people need to be mauled by tigers for it to be enough? How many people need to abuse and neglect a large animal of which they are totally incapable of providing the necessary means of life for? No,  the average idiot shouldn't be allowed to own such a majestic animal of such potential proportions. Should they be allowed after educating themselves, considering their decision, taking precautionary measures, and proving they are serious about their intent? Maybe.

You need not be fighting me good fellow, I'm not your adversary.  Why can't we work together for an agreed upon and common cause? It's this "better than thou" attitude that you carry that will be the downfall of this movement to stop the machine. We should not be trying to figure out who is better or worse, or who is more right. We should agree to disagree about certain aspects, but realize that in the end we are fighting the same battle. I never said I planned to include my personal opinions in the letter or petition that are to be written, because I don't. Now, allay your fears, I'm not a mole, or a spy sent by the U.S. government to take down your movement. Okay?

Her letter will be a template, you put what you want to your legislators.

I'm not a fan of any government involvement. Period. Rarely does the government have a clue on ANYTHING, let alone the details of animal ownership. If I want to own a tiger, I should be able to do so. The reason that I don't is because I don't have the money or land to do so. Nor the experience. However I'm not going to give up Tigers, Monkeys, or Venomous to keep my own stuff. The smallest percent of people screwing up, who are only hurting themselves, is not enough to throw down blanket legislation that damns the responsible.

I don't know how many times I need to say it, it is NOT the governments job to keep us safe. It's up to me to keep myself and my loved ones safe. That's why I carry a gun, that's why I lock my doors. It's time for the US to stop being a nation of victims, and sack up to responsibility.

This is as much about the ability to own our snakes, as it is about getting the government to stop legislating EVERYTHING and taking away all of the things we enjoy.

As we say in hockey, "SAME TEAM!!!!"

Keep it intelligent and civil please.

Brandi, the 15 year old shouldn't be able to get his hands on a snowmobile, that's his parents responsibility. The 18 year old kid who can get his hands on one should be able to get it, and drive it into a river and kill himself. Welcome to freedom, welcome to responsibility for your actions. Now, going onto public roads, well, that's a bit of a different story because it's involving the public. But on his own property?

I think you have to draw the line at allowing the government to legislate what we can and cant do, and whether that's okay. Because you can say, "yes, Tigers should be banned" and as much as you think you're right, that's exactly how right someone who says "Burmese Pythons should be banned". They're both dangerous in the hands of the incompetent. Just like a serrated bread knife is dangerous in the hands of the incompetent. Should we outlaw knives?

Where you draw your line is important to this conversation. But at the end of the day, when you write your legislators, you tell them how you feel. The point is, don't sit back and do nothing.

Point well made Aaron. Though I do see your points from in some ways I'll still have to disagree with certain points. We are all responsible for ourselves, and our children and animals. However, SOME people shouldn't be allowed that responsibility in my opinion. Should we ban knives? Of course not. Should we hand a felon convicted of rape, or even someone who has the intent of comitting rape a knife? No, definitely not. If there wasn't a ban but perhaps more strict laws to abide by, we could still keep our animals, AND weed out the people who don't deserve the opportunity.

I'm not addressing this opinion in my letter or petition, because I recognize what is my opinion, and what is fact. The governent will argue until they're blue in the face over someones opinion, and are so gutsy as to argue over fact in many circumstances. We're trying to open the eyes, ears, and minds of these officials. Will I include some points in my letter maybe? Sure. Just, not the one to the publish. Will i say "Oh, you should probably prohibit the ownership of certain animals to licensed and reasonably educated individuals? HELL NO. To do that is the same as admitting the group as a whole has done something wrong. All I'm saying is in the end we may have to grin and bear the middle-ground that we are afforded. ONLY AFTER  I have fought until this struggle is won though.

I really hope in the end they see how many people are taking this ban very objectively, and are willing to fight it tooth and nail for their right to keep whatever animals they want. I'm not saying it's right, only that we may have to consider a grey area in this outcome. Because sometimes matters can't be black or white, or at least they don't end that way, unfortunately. 

But I do agree! Don't sit back and do nothing. Do something, do anything! The time is now. I've spent about 6 hours online so far today responding to blogs, forums, posting ,posting, reposting, and doing more posting today about this ban. And I'm not done yet =] .

I applaud what you are doing Brandi, it is a sad day in American when we are told what we can and can not own! I know there are a lot of irresponsible pet owners out there. That is evident in our animal shelters. But I do not think that they should out right ban the ownership of these animals.

I have rescued a few snakes, among them are corn snakes, ball pythons and a spotted python. People don't understand the needs of these animals. Education is the key to everything. I live in a state that already tried to ban the ownership of certain reptiles. Those of us that actually take the responsiblity of these animal seriously shouldn't be punished for those that dont.

America is for the people by the people, a concept that most American's have forgotten. Speak out against the things you don't agree with, that is how change is made!

How 'bout this one, Bradi, my LOVE of this county and what it stands for is so strong that while your opinion turns me red with fury, I would never consider stopping you from having it or practicing your opinions.  As long as what you do doesn't hurt anyone else, your right of self-determination means you can get yourself killed by your hungry tiger.  Look, I believe I have a very unusual big Burm.  He is different from every snake I have ever owned.  Now, I may be "over-projecting" and misinterpreting what happens in our daily encounters, but isn't that my choice?  Why do you need to protect me from my own stupidity?  You can warn me, you can argue.  But you don't have the right to go to the damn governemt to get them to inact legislation to prevent me from enjoying the happiness this believed unsual relationship provides.  Maybe it's real...maybe its not.  The only sure thing is that its not either your's or the government's business.  What I do behind the closed doors of MY HOME, as long as it is not hurting anybody else, IS NONE OF YOUR OR THIS GOVERNMENT'S DAMNED BUSINESS!  PLEASE?  I'm 55 years old.  I am capable of "informed consent".  I don't need you to rescue me, or make a law that punnishes me if I fail to do what you legislate.

It comes to my state i'm going to fight it!

Firefighter, I think the whole of Brandi's post is to not prevent others from telling you what you can and can not do in your house. She is asking that they dont outlaw pythons and boas! 

And actually you still have to abide by the laws of the land. If they are trying to force a law to be passed you do not agree with, it is your American right to speak out against it. To lobby to have the bill shot down or it will be passed. Which means, they can come to you, fine you or put you in jail and take your reptiles into custody and do what they please with them. I dont want to see that happen and neither does she.

Thank you, Stephenie. Why would I be eaten by a tiger? I don't believe I should own one, remember? Are people such sloths that they can't or won't subject themselves to a better education regarding the ownership of their exotic (though domesticated) animals? By your logic, it's no ones business, not the government nor mine if you want to abuse, neglect, molest, or otherwise harm animals? It's not about saving you from your own stupidity, it's about saving the animals from yours or other humans adherent ignorance. As the laws stand in most states, any dolt can own an animal. You'll never convince me that this is a plausible idea. You can do as you please, and get yourself injured or killed. I won't be heartbroken. But, when you want to take an animal into your care, you should be held responsible for that animals welfare. No, I don't think you should have your ability to own your Burmese revoked. Unless you are proven an unfit owner. In my opinion uneducated, unprepared, misinformed, and/or just plain idiotic people are unfit to own animals. To hand a large snake to an ill-equiped person is like handing it to a mere toddler and wishing him luck, by many standards. Do you think toddlers should be able to own Columbian Boas, Burmese Pythons, or any animal for that matter? No, that's silly right? A small child doesn't hold the ability or responsibility to own a living thing, you might say. Well, handing a snake or any other living thing over to an adult with inproper knowledge is just as silly in my eyes. You're not going to make me believe otherwise. I think my plight so far has been pretty reasonable. If you're not doing anything wrong, have good intentions, and you have the animals best wellbeing in mind you should have no reason to fear a law imposing guidelines and standards to animal ownership.

Brandi, as much as I see where you're coming from, I think the toddler metaphore is a bit far fetched. The reason you don't hand a reptile to a toddler is because a toddler has absolutely no common sense. An adult, on the other hand, has the common sense to research. Its really not fair to mandate classes for the ownership of anything. Suggesting them is great, and although I do agree that people should attend classes or otherwise equip themselves, many people buy snakes without knowing the first thing about them but they find out. If you start doing that sorrt of thing, soon it will be illegal for anyone under a certain age to purchase a snake, or anyone who hasn't paid a lot of money for a lisence, and so on. 

I TOTALLY agree that an owner of any animal is solely responsible for the animal's health and happiness. However, if one person tries to limit another, it will indeffinitely excell out of control. This is how we end up with bans like the ones we are already dealing with. I personally feel that restrictions should be put on owning and breeding pit bulls because of the inhumane crap people subject them to. Honestly, it has gotten to a point where I think people should not be able to breed them at all, and a license should be required to own one in the animals' interest. But no one would go for that. The responsible owners would stand up and fight, or they would suffer. Just like we are doing here.

I know that seems off subject, but my point is this is all based on one person's oppinion affecting others and their reaction. It will not end how we wish or how we intend. How could it? Its one oppinion against everyone else's

No, Stephanie, she's willing to compromise my liberty to do as I please without the "INTRUSION" of government regulation and enforcement.  Great!  We get to keep our Burms and Boas, but we've got to take a class, get a license, (which is going to cost $$$ - it sure won't be free like it is now), be forbidden to take them across state lines, submit to regulation that'll subject you to inspection for compliance, and be backed by prison penalties for failing to comply   Then there'll be the license renewal every now and again, and the payment of that fee and a tax for the priviledge.  You want your Burms and Boas under these conditions.  Because this is exactly the compromise Brandi is proposing whether she realizes it or not.   Government regulation in our personal liberties and freedoms is like agreeing to allow yourself to be infected a less virulent for of Cancer!  Don't you see what's happened to this country since 911?   It's gotta be all or nothing, because it'll wind up be nothing when they're through.  We need to threaten our Congressmen and Senators with the loss of our votes if they put their mark on any type of legislation of this nature.  And we need to lobby so that we can get other non-herps onboard to threaten right along with us!  That's how you stop this madness.

"(which is going to cost $$$ - it sure won't be free like it is now), be forbidden to take them across state lines, submit to regulation that'll subject you to inspection for compliance, and be backed by prison penalties for failing to comply,Then there'll be the license renewal every now and again, and the payment of that fee and a tax for the priviledge."

I never said any  of that. At all, not once, not even implied it. You're reading between the lines a bit too much in what I've said. I suggested people should have to take a class, and that this class is what would allow you to license your pet/s. Would there be some type of fee?  Sure. If you can't pay a simple one time fee, do you expect me to ponder that you can afford the proper care of exotic snakes? Also, the licenses could hypothetically be renewable by taking further classes. Hell, even a life-time license could be fathomable. If Indiana can create life-time gun permits, why not life-time snake/animal permits?

 The toddler imagery wasn't the best metaphor, but my point was only that an animal in the wrong hands is subject to abuse and neglect, and that we shouldn't allow just anyone to own them. I think if Uncle Sam could make a profit from us, we'd be able to keep our herps, sadly Do I think this is right, fair, or just? Hell no. But in the end of this war over our rights to own animals, particularly snakes, this may be the last thread we have to hang onto. Really, all I've implied is a "worst case scenerio" setting, and what we could do in that situation. If the worst scenerio is I have to take classes and buy a license, then I'll reluctantly have to agree. Do I think this is or want this to be our first option? Hell no. Again, my concern is in the interest of the animals we choose to keep. If more had been done to regulate ownership in certain cases many of the bad outcomes we've seen wouldn't have happened. I feel that if you're passionate enough about your animals, and their welfare, you'll do whatever it takes to keep them, and to maintain their happiness and wellbeing.

I'm in no way suggesting some kind of totalitarian movement or law to govern our personal lives, homes, etc. And I surely hope that doesn't result at all. Do you have something to hide, FireFighterSC? Do you neglect and/or otherwise inflict harm upon your snakes? Are you so under-educated that you're not sure if you should be able to keep them?  If not, then what do you have to fear? I don't wish this upon you, nor I. However, just because I'm realistic in what may happen in the end of this, doesn't mean I wish for that as an outcome. Believe me. Stop putting words in my mouth, and saying what you think I'm "trying" to do, please.

"I feel that if you're passionate enough about your animals, and their welfare, you'll do
whatever it takes to keep them, and to maintain their happiness and
wellbeing."

Brandi, to this
and all your other writings I say 'Amen Sister!!'

I see a lot of people spouting off about 'their rights, their liberties and their freedoms'.
Nice that y'all want to get so up in the governments face when it is about
'your' freedoms at risk. May I ask where all this indignation is where animal
welfare is concerned? Do you sign petitions and get in your legislators faces
about the appalling number of abused, tortured and murdered reptiles that
happen on a daily basis?

Of course you want to protect your rights and so you should. But let’s not discount what
Brandi is suggesting as compromise now rather than a much more severe
enforcement later.

Anna, forget moving to Canada. Yes, there are bans all over the place here. I myself have just moved from a province that allowed pretty much everything to one that I
did not know had an ALL BOID SPECIES BAN. Actually, it's a city by city thing
as I understand it and while Toronto allows many species, they have a ban on
ALL snakes over 3 meters or anything venomous.Right now, I would happily agree
to that not just because it would exclude my own boids but because I am sick to
death of hearing the conditions that these snakes are commonly found in. I do
not actually think there should be a ban on owning any animal providing that a
person can provide for them not just adequately but in 'comfort'. And not
yours, theirs! I hate to trample all over your civil liberties but I would be
more than willing to pay a fee for each individual large Boid and happily take
whatever classes somebody thinks I should attend and prove I have the proper
caging requirements in order to keep my beloved animals. People here already
have dog and cat licenses that they renew regularly, so I really don't think
that needing a snake license would bother anyone.
As it stands right now I keep my animals illegally as I did not know about the ban and even if I had, I'd never abandon my children! I am about to start a petition with
the city to allow Boids. I have already started getting all the pet stores on board with allowing the petitions for their customers to sign. Yes, this is a pain in the ass and no I do not believe the government should be allowed to have outright bans. I now have the fight on my hands that you people fear.
So, given the choice of not being allowed to keep any of my snakes with no
restrictions, to being allowed to keep them with both restrictions and fees, I
would take the latter if it meant people had to actually take care of their
animals. And Brandi, you said the magic word 'fees' which should pave the way for your legislators to agree to just about anything!

 I do not agree with a government that enforces a blanket ban without
any kind of compromise. I do however support one that puts an animal’s welfare
first. Just how many times do you need to hear of the 15 ft. boa that is kept
in a 4 ft. tank before realizing that not all people are equipped to own larger
reptiles?

Anyways, I apologize for digressing here but hell, everyone else does!

Yes, protect your liberties while you have them. But don't be surprised if you end up having to give a little. Believe me when I tell you that a little compromise would be a
small thing to pay. And if in the process it protects your animals as well,
then what would be the problem with that?

Wow, a lot happened yesterday.  First let me say, FireFighterSC, no I've never heard that verse, can you find where it is?  The worse I've found is it says snakes are crafty, not evil.  Here's a couple verses showing otherwise:

They will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. -Mark 16:18

Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. -Matthew 10:16

Then the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Prove yourselves by working a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. -Exodus 7:8-13.

If snakes are evil why would Aaron's staff turn into a snake and God say he was preforming a miracle?

Brandi, there is much arguement as to whether snakes had legs before, some argue they used to fly and the wings were taken away, that part is not clear.  Regardless, the Bible was written by man, man as we know is flawed and a lot is left to interpretation.  The actual quote from Genesis 3:13-15 says:

So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

So are cattle evil, God says they are cursed as well, but never does it say they are evil.

Lisa, yes that is very true, thank you for also pointing that out, everything God created was and is GOOD!

I'm definately looking forward to the petition on Change.org, please keep us posted on that.

I think what's important to note, in the HSUS is really pushing this, Urban Jungle Radio posted this a couple days ago:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/07/1758457/crackdown-on-snakes.html

Here's what pissing me off the most.  He says there's $100 million a year spent on them and other invasive species.  I assume that's the whole US, but even if it was just FL, there are 168 invasive aquatic species in FL alone (proof).

I also found lists of all non-native animals:

Mammals

Birds

Reptiles

Amphibians

Freshwater Fish

Marine Species

And of course we all know how much damage cats do to native species, but yeah let's have a campaign against snakes that have never killed a single human in FL in the wild.  I just can't stand it when numbers are manipulated to scare people.

As for regulation, I don't want any honestly, but in most states you need a license to breed and sell native species, which honestly I'm fine with cause it is to prevent people from taking too many out of the wild.  You can own as many as you want, but in MD it's a $25/yr license to breed and sell snakes such as corn snakes.  To be required to take a class to own large constrictors wouldn't honestly bother me that much mainly for the fact it would at least help to prevent idiots that don't know what they are doing.  I feel the same way about most animals, especially horses.  I see far too many abuse cases where the reason for the abuse was ignorance.

As for the license to be a parent, I fully endorse that, some people shouldn't have kids as far as I'm concerned, but I also understand why that wouldn't fly.  The license is a fine line, I do see both sides, give an inch, they take a mile.  I've had this same discussion with several other hot button issues in politics and have said, well I think x, y, and z wouldn't hurt, but then if they get x, y, and z, they'll say well, let's have w, then u, then soon they'll have the whole alphabet.  This can be used to our advantage though, cause it'll start with large constrictors, then all snakes, then all herps, then before you know it, no pets at all.

Now Brandi, one thing to also remember is more people are killed every year by dogs.  I think that certain animals such as tigers can be dangerous, more so than dogs.  But I think that you should be allowed to have one, with a license and not just cause you're a zoo or a sanctuary.  For this reason I don't want to need a license to have certain snakes, but currently I need one to have venomous and wouldn't think it was the end of the world if I needed a license to keep large constrictor, but it would not be my first choice.

What I find most interesting with politics (this is why I'm an independent) is that one side wants more government regulation, but then the other side says less government, but then says that stuff like no abortion and home land security can listen to all your converstation.  I'm not going to say my opinions here, only that you need the government for certain things and a class to own any pet would not be the end of the world.

The problem with having laws that require appropriate caging methods is that it's a hideously complicated thing to implement properly. Those making these laws rarely know anything about reptiles. I knew a guy in Finland where they do have laws like this and he said it made it difficult to keep tons of reptiles because the laws were applied based on length of snake. Like a snake 5-7 ft has to have a cage of at least blah blah dimensions. This failed to take into account that a 7 ft boa constrictor and a 7 ft atb have vastly different caging requirements because of their habits and body morphology. Similarly, if you require people to take classes before they can own large boids, think about how many qualified professionals the government would have to find to teach these classes. And they'd have to pay them. Who in the government do you really trust to arrange such things properly? I don't think they'd be fond of that because they wouldn't want to pay for it. And from an outsiders point of view, why should they? I agree that microchipping certain species isn't a bad idea. And no, I surely don't mind buying a $25 license at academy for large boids the same way you can for exotic venomous here in texas. But honestly I don't think that will matter much. They required licenses in Florida and it didn't do anything helpful. When the media gets ahold of it they don't care whether the person who owned the snake was a law abiding license holding individual.

"Of course you want to protect your rights and so you should. But let’s not discount what
Brandi is suggesting as compromise now rather than a much more severe
enforcement later."

Medusa, your entire argument, imo, is flawed for several reasons. First, your underlying assumption that a "compromise" now will eliminate a push for bans in the future is wrong.  Those pushing for these regulations do not want compromise, they want to eliminate private ownership of "exotic" animals completely.  That, imo, should be blindingly obvious to anyone who has been following this issue in the US.  These useless regulations are, at best, just an incremental step towards a ban.   Secondly, why should anyone compromise?   Are we compromising only because some dishonest government agencies and "scientists" are causing a hysteria?   Would you compromise with someone who is claiming 2+2 is equal to 5 by agreeing that 2+2 equals 4.5 simply for the sake of compromising?   Would you compromise with a bully who was taking all your money and agree to him taking only half your money?   Imo, it's makes no sense to (correctly) criticize all these politicians and junk scientists for being corrupt and/or completely wrong with their statistics and science, but then saying, "Well, ok, let's compromise and agree to regulations for which there is no need.. well, other than to compromise."  Compromising with a turd only legitimizes the turd.   Lastly,  THERE ARE ALREADY LAWS addressing animal cruelty and criminal negligence.   Why are futher regulations needed?   This is the same silly argument gun control owner use to promote gun control.  Criminals and irresponsible/ignorant people aren't going to abide by the regulations anyway; the regulations are only going to make honest, responsible people criminals, raise prices on everything, and creat another potentially corrupt and incompetent enforcement agency that will have the power to search your home and seize your animals.  

Sorry, I will never comprose with bullies simply out of fear.  If you and others think I'm the enemy, then so be it.

Great quote I came across a few months ago:

"In the political arena; until we overcome the paradigm of Republican Vs. Democrat, Red Vs. Blue, and Left Vs. Right we can never overcome our true enemy.....an ever-expansive, all consuming, central government. And until we realize that those who use that government to impose their beliefs on us are justified by our tendancy to do the same, we will not know peace or liberty." 
-Brent Lawler

Thank you, Ed!  You said it better than I did.  It's hard to make someone understand what they've already been programed to accept.  Today's generation has no understanding of the liberties, rights and freedoms we lost previously.  They have never known what it was like not to have to go through the crap we do now in out Nation's Airports.  They  have never known what is was like when you could walk into any Public Building or Courthouse without having to clear a metal detector or being subject to security inspections.  They have never known what it was like when you could own any firearm you wanted without government regulation, or when our Country REQUIRED that each of us OWN a weapon of modern make and have sufficient ammunition on hand to defend our country from enemies both foriegn and domestic.  They have never known, and sadly, if we don't win this fight, their children will never know what it was like to own boids and other constictors, because they will have never known.....

I'm sorry, but if any of you have studied logic you have all committed multiple fallicies in your arguements.  We're not saying they should require a license, but honestly why are you fighting to get rid of the native species license?

And what freedom was taken away from you by having to walk through a metal detector?  If you aren't doing anything wrong, what's the issue?  Here's the other issue with tigers, they are an endangered species, if they could be sold in pet store don't you think even more would be taken out of the wild?

So, let's get rid of the seat belt laws, let's get rid of laws against heroine, cocaine, etc., let's allow people to walk into airports without any kind of search, metal detectors, etc., let's allow guns to go unregistered, let's allow abortions all the way up to 9 months, the list goes on and on.

Absolutely!  Get rid of seatbelt laws!  Statistics prove that in 50% of all highspeed accidents, it doesn't matter whether you're wearing your seat belt, because someone dies.  Absolutely, get rid of the drug laws.  The war on crime hasn't worked for over 50 years!  Absolutely.  Our airports were working fine before 911.  Absoluetely,  Gun registration is only a thron to the law abiding and has never prevented criminals from getting access to guns.  Absolutely.  It's her body.  It's her RIGHT of choice.  Absolutely, let's go on and on.  Do you not understand the concept of FREEDOM?  It is the right of self-determination.  To do as you please as long as you are not hurting any one elsae or interferring with their right to do as they please.  And, once upon a time in this country, it was like this.  But you don't know it, so you can't understand it!

So if you're driving along and someone hit you head on and they are not wearing their seatbelt and they turn into a projectile and that amount of force hits and kills your child in the seat next to you, how would you feel about seatbelt laws then?  And if 50% of the time it doesn't matter, that means 50% of the time it does so if there are let's say 100 million (this is a random number) per year, so if there were no law and no one wore them there would be 50 million more deaths.

So if everyone could do cocaine how much money would be spent on the rehibiliation of those who are hooked and can't even function anymore.  Also crime rates would go up, cause even if the drug itself was legal, how many people are killed over these drugs currently.  Honestly, you'd be naive to think that crime rates would not go up if people could freely do dangerous drugs.

If our airports were working fine, can you explain why 911 happened?

Gun registration doesn't prevent people from committing crimes but we can link certain guns to certain crimes.  Same way that if a snake, or any animal is microchipped we can find the owner.  I think anyone should be allowed to own a gun, but you need to register it, if you're not going to do anything wrong with it, why do you care?

I agree with allowing abortion, but to me, a woman, if you're 9 months pregnant and in labor and you kill the child in the womb and she still goes through giving birth, but now it's dead, that's wrong in ever way shape and form.  I read a book once and there was a story from a nurse in it.  The nurse said there was a couple who wanted a baby, but after they found out their baby would have down syndrome they decided to abort it, but at 6 months she had labor induced and the baby was born, but the lungs weren't fully developed.  So the baby could have been put in an incubator and most likely would have lived.  Instead this nurse was told to take the baby and place it in a room to die, she said she just couldn't and held the child as it tried to breathe and slowly died after 45 minutes.  If you're ok with that, then fine, well, I have nothing to say.

Also abortion was originally not allowed, hence why people say, "no more coat hangers" cause there was a time that was all woman could not get an abortion, so that arguement that "once upon a time in this country, it was like this" is void.

Also should we allow child molestors to live around schools?  Sorry, but you can argue that that takes away from their rights and freedoms as well.

Do you know how old I am?  I could be older than you for all you know, it doesn't say my age on here.  But to be rude and try to say I don't understand the concept of Freedom is just uncalled for, I love this country more than you can imagine.

You also never addressed what the issue with the metal detectors.  I also don't see how your freedom has been taken away cause the airport takes a little longer than it did before.  I also have no issue with the government listening into my phone calls, reading my texts, etc, you know why?  Cause I'm not committing any crimes and my safety and the safety of my country is far more important to me than privacy.

Laws don't mean that people won't commit crimes, but if there weren't laws we'd have anarchy.  All those laws protect people and I'm sorry, with abortion if it's out and trying to breathe, you should at least try to save it!  If you want an abortion get it done before 6 months!  How much does that seatbelt hurt anyone?  It saves lives not only for those wearing them, but others.  The airports are trying to protect you and everyone else.  Do you honestly think a metal detector hurts you or anyone else?  Does that metal detector interfer with your right or anyone else?  If there were no metal detectors and someone came into the courthouse and shot and killed someone, would you still be against them?  To even think this takes away from your FREEDOM is just ridiculous!

Ok, I just realized this is what you believe:

"We're also a family of Libertarians, who steadfastly believe that our founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing when they designed and ratified the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights. I'm a Veteran of both the US NAVY and ARMY, so I still honor my pledge to protect the Consitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. We profess a love of God and Country and I believe our homes are our castles, the right to do whatever we want behind closed doors (as long as its not hruting anybody else), freedom of speech, religion, the right to keep and bare arms, and the right of self-determination (as long as it is not hurting anybody else), without fear of governmental intrusion. In this family, we don't believe in the Patriot Act, of a government that's all things for everybody, the IRS and taxes, or the US as International Police. And while we support our troops, we don't believe they have any business being where they are for the bullmuckluck reasons they are there! For us, the right to life is God Given, whether it be man or animal and the sanctity of life should never be taken lightly!"

You don't believe in TAXES?????  That doesn't make any sense, how do you think you were paid when in the Army and Navy?

So basically you don't want a government?  You live in a fantacy world that would never work, I'm sorry, I've read about Libertarianism, Free Market everything, schools, healthcare, banks, etc.  So what if you can't afford schools?  Where do poor people's kids go to school?

No taxes, means no FDA which means people could be eating foods that aren't tested, taking untested, possibly dangerous meds!  No quality standards!

It would be great if we could all self regulate, but it won't happen.

Think about what taxes go towards, paying teachers, maintaining roads, paying scientists (like my boyfriend) to do cancer and HIV/AIDS research, paying police and fire fighters, etc.

I find that people think this is a great idea until, due to no fault of their own, are in a position where they have lost everything and have nothing, then who do you go to for help?  The government!  And guess what, they are there to help you, I work in the mortgage business and I used to work in credit card collections, I have seen people in awful situations and they have nothing, but the government helped them! 

Free market with no government regulation is like letting the fox guard the hen house.

I love Star Trek, but to assume people just do what they want cause they love it and it works would be great, but will never work.

Tiki, how old are you?  Have you ever read the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights?  Do you understand what really happened when the South lost the war between the States?  Or are you one of the new generation that believes it was all about "slavery"?  Do you understand that the Immancipation Proclamation only applied to the Southern States?  Do you understand what happened when federalism became a centralized form of government - against the written wishes of our founding fathers, who proclaimed that we would be doomed if we allowed it to happen - and the 14th amendment was ratified?  Do you understand what the loss of Soveriegnty meant to you as an individual? Do you understand how taxation occured prior to the conclusion of the War Between The States? 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not putting you down, nor am I going to give you a history lesson.  I ask your age because it helps me understand where you are coming from.  I will tell you this: it has taken me years and years or study and research to answer the questions I've asked in the preceeding paragraph.  You see, Tiki, I love our First Amendment freedoms so much that even if I disapproved of what you say, I would never consider interferring with you right to say it!  Most of you think this is just about a ban against something you love to do, when, in fact, it involves so very, very much more!  These bans are, in fact, a pivotal point in this country's history.  Because there are other proposed bans out there and one of them would allow the government to label me as a seditionist and strip me of my rights for what I've said in this blog.  God bless you, Tiki, because with what's coming down the pike, you and you're generation are sure gonna need it.

http://www.facebook.com/l/_AQEvRjVZ/united-states-association-of-reptile-keepers.rallycongress.com/5799/no-on-fws-python-rule-bad-american-small-business-families-alread/

Read it and weep!

http://www.facebook.com/l/eAQGhgmrk/www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/assets/oira_1018/1018_04182011-3.pdf

Honestly, my age shouldn't matter, but I'm 21 and yes I have read both all the way through and I understand every word.  I'm not sure who believes the Civil War was over slavery, but apparently according to you people do.  My ex was a history major and I was letcured on history every night of my life for 3.5 years, and regardless of him I went to college and took plenty of history classes myself including US History 0-1865.  My Mother's house was built in 1863 and for fun we've done research about we're in MD and "the old line state" was very divided so we were just curious as to why someone would build a house in the middle of the Civil War.  And yes, yes, yes, and again yes.  I know my history very well and I also like to take a step back and see both sides, which is once again, why I'm an independant.  My boyfriend is from Australia and I think if you lived there you'd croak, lots of taxes, but everyone is well taken care of and I used to be completely against the public health care cause I thought it would be like England who did it all wrong imo.  But he showed me how it works and I would have no issue with having 2 options, just like in schools.  You have a public option and a private option.  Private it honestly better, but you have to pay for it, some people can't afford 10k a year for 12 years for their kids to go to grade school, which is why there are two options.

I do agree with you about the First Amendment and believe you have every right to say what you want, and I respect that right, but correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe any country has implimented Libertarianism.  I feel it looks great on paper, but so does Communism, the problem is bad things happen to people through no fault of their own.  Perfect example, when I was 7 my Dad died very suddenly, my Mom went from 2 incomes to 1, she had savings, but that would only last her, me and my 3 year old brother so long.  The government helped her through that hard time to get back on her feet.  With pure Libertarianism they would have said too bad, good luck.  Now I'm not saying she went on welfare, she continued to work, but there was a government program that helped her.  Also I believe welfare needs to be reformed cause a lot of people abuse it, but to take it away, or take away disability, what would happen to those people?  Only when you have lost everything will you understand.  To privatize everything would mean that everything becomes about profit.  As I said I work in the mortgage industry and while this is going to sound awful, do you know how investors (not the mortgage company) decide whether to modify someone's loan?  The look at what would lose them more money, the modification or foreclosure.  If foreclosure costs less, sorry they lose their home.  While this is sad for those losing their homes do to no fault of their own, it's a business.  If you turn everything into a business, then this happens in all areas including education.  You need the government to regulate businesses, without the OCC I wouldn't be doing the current project I'm on, which is checking to make sure no mistakes were made.  BOA could still charge overdraft fees in the manner they were.

As for the US ARK, I think it goes without saying that I support them and all that they do and those are both great links, but as I said, are you going to fight the native species license I currently maintain as well?

I like turtles.

I've glanced over your replies and responses to my statements. I'm sorry that I don't have the time to read over it all right now. I hope to at some point, and to try respond respectfully in due time. I still have gotten the sense that most people are selectively reading than grasping the content of my statements as a whole. I'm not angry at your human nature to see what you want or expect to find in text that you are reading. I am however frustrated. I'm not suggesting we compromise at this point. As I've said many times, even though we don't want a compromise or to engage with the enemy in common thought or grounds, we must still consider this may be an outcome. You can all turn a blind eye to the reality of results we may face, that is your choice and right. But as far as arguing with the deaf, I'm done. I have better things to do than to argue with my allies. I have action needing to be taken and I'd rather spend my free time doing just that. I do appreciate those of you who've seen my major points in my responses. I agree Aaron, turtles are swell =]. And thanks for the subject change and direction back to topic. Has anyone else realized that there are some major flaws with this ban? For Pete's sake, they listed Pythons under the family Boidae.

Here it comes:  http://www.facebook.com/n/?l%2FTAQFJMEe_AQFkYJB_6w1FzNy_KLnp-wy1kgXuhQRjFRvufQ%2Fwww.miamiherald.com%2F2012%2F01%2F16%2F2592593%2Fus-set-to-approve-python-ban.html&mid=57&n_m=jschepisjr%40yahoo.com

The only two things covered here are african rock pythons and Burms; are those the only two being banned? Also, is this all of the U.S. or just Florida?

Someone asked for a letter.  I said I'd help - but I won't just write a letter in 10 minutes.  I need research and facts, and then to recheck those facts.  And some time.  Here is a VERY ROUGH draft.  I am quite open to constructive criticism:

January 17, 2012

Representative Linda Lawson
Indiana House of Representatives
200 W. Washington Street
Indianapolis, IN 46204-2786
h1@in.gov

Re:         House Bill No. 1288

Dear Representative Lawson:

I hope this letter finds you in good health and spirits.  I am writing on behalf of myself, my friends, small business owners and the entire Herpetology community regarding the aforementioned legislation. 

When I read the bill for the first time, I could understand that the inception of same could quite possibly come from a standpoint of wanting the citizens of Indiana to be safer when “dangerous wild animals” are concerned.  When these creatures are paired with the uneducated, it can pose a life-threatening situation, no doubt.

I read the bill again, in the hopes of comprehending it a bit better and to really get a good feel where you were coming from.  It was at this point I began losing clarity, and gaining confusion.

As written on Page 3, Lines 22 and 23, Subsection (J), House Bill 1288 defines one of the “dangerous wild animals” as “All species of the family Boidae (anacondas, pythons, boa constrictors).”  The first thing that popped out at me was that pythons are not part of the Boidae family (although they’re listed as if they were), but part of the Pythonidae family.  Because of this oversight, it is impossible to know which snakes you are truly referring to.

Some people, like myself, have a single snake (a ball python, to be exact) as a beloved pet.  Other people have twenty or more snakes as pets.  Different owners have over one hundred – some may be viewed as pets, but ultimately, it is their livelihood and only source of income. 

On January 5, 2011, a study was published by Georgetown Economic Services, LLC, commissioned by The United States Association of Reptile Keepers (USARK, and available for your ready reference at www.whitehouse.gov), entitled The Modern U.S. Reptile Industry.  The report itself was over 70 pages, but I’ll just hit the highlights:

v  In 2009, the reptile industry earned more than $1 billion.

v  Most of the reptile businesses in the United States are “Mom & Pop” shops.

v  4.7 million U.S. households owned more than 13.6 pet reptiles.

That is an extremely quick overview.  The report is filled with hundreds of other factoids, but what I would really like to focus on is that if enacted, House Bill 1288 would effectively put many of the residents of Indiana out of business, forcing them into unemployment and undoubtedly becoming a burden on the state.  When a person has a reptile business, there is little time for anything else, as that is their full time job.

I haven’t forgotten that you have listed snakes, venomous and non-venomous, as “dangerous wild animals,” showing concern for your citizens.  Are you aware that since 1980, there have been less than a dozen fatalities from venomous snakes?  Did you know that from 1990 to 2008 there were eight fatalities by non-venomous snakes?  The people who own reptiles (either for business or for pets) are actually quite responsible and extremely educated so that they can prevent injuries.

Each year, more people are killed by deer (on average, around 150) than by dogs, snakes, sharks, mountain lions, bears and alligators combined.  That fact gives me pause as to why deer are not on the list of “dangerous wild animals.” Walking into a caged area with a deer is more dangerous than keeping a variety of boa as a pet.

Representative Lawson, I implore you to “kill the bill.”  Not only will it cause many of your residents to become out of work, small business owners who are trying to provide for their families, but it would also be like losing a family member to some.  I know that it may be hard to understand the love some people have for reptiles, but that does not mean they love them any less than a person may love a cat or a dog. 

Your diligent efforts and the tax payer dollars would be much better directed to education, your 9% unemployment rate, and helping out the small business owner instead of trying to impede them.

Warmest Regards,

Emily, I love you!

Anna, the Lacey Act is a National Ban inacted by the Federal Government via the Commerce Clause (United States Constitution Article I, Section 8).

Thank you, Emily.

Thanks Firefighter. I actually read up on it this morning.

Great letter, Emily!

Thanks :)  I tried.  That letter is available for anyone to steal and bend to however they wish to phrase it.  I sent it to her e-mail last night, but I think I'll also hardcopy mail it whenever I get to the office.  I'm just hoping it has an impact.

Awesome, Emily! I'm still going to work on the petition. I'm sorry for the delay, but my writer friend has been out of town.

I've never done a Petition, as it would be accepted on Change.org (I've done legal petitions, but NEVER one like that)  -- I've done ever other legal document you can think of.  If you have any examples of an acceptable petition, feel free to e-mail me some (emily.b.russom@gmail.com) and I'll see what I can come up with, should you want another person to help you out.

You can change the Language for the Indiana or Ohio or where ever.

I think it is very well written. Great job!

These blanks are attempts at trying to up;oad a petition that's failing.  Here's another  try.

For some reason I can't "paste" the petition in.

I had massive trouble with pasting.  Paste the text into a Word document.  Then copy and repaste into the forums - it worked for me.

I uploaded a Petition in my blog area.  Check it out if you like.

Em,  my petition is based on the proposed legislation for the Lacey act as derived from this link.  http://www.facebook.com/l/eAQGhgmrk/www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/assets/oira_1018/1018_04182011-3.pdf

**smile**

I referenced that research in my letter to the Indiana representative ;)

What to do when were run by tyrants.....

What to do when were run by tyrants.....

I'd love input, Emily. If you want to help you can email me also, at visceralrepulsion@yahoo.com with some insight. Your assistance would be greatly valued for your knowledge of legal documents, especially. As for the petitions on change.org, a lot aren't that intimidating in structure, to be honest. I've wtinessed some that are just poor in essence. I intend to create one representative of us all, and for it to be dignified. My friend and I are going to work on the petition tomorrow I believe. Hopefully we can finish it in the time frame of tomorrow, and have it posted and spread like wildfire.

I suppose the question is, how many should be up at change.org?  I actually signd one today regarding the python ban: http://www.change.org/petitions/over-turn-the-python-ban-over-turn-the-python-ban-from-1-17-12

Should another be started from scratch and added?  Should we sign the one already there (where he misspelled a word)?

Feel FREE to steal that letter I wrote to Indiana (crap I have to mail that hardcopy!  Forgot!  Will do now...) for any words.  

Oh, as for the legalities of the ban - I heard back from Fish and Wildlife - check out my latest blog.

Hey Emily, if you want to use this in your letter you can point out more people have been killed by soda machines than constrictors

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml96/96011.html

I know the one I uploaded is being used in front of Wal mart and other location.  This probably will work if yo'll want to use it that way.  If sure will keep down on  redundancy..

@Tiki -- I'm sure that's not supposed to be viewed as humerous, but it really is.  Sorry, I have a warped sense of humour.

I agree, that's pretty hilarious.

It's funny in a sad kinda way, lol

SODA MACHINES ARE MURDERERS! Let's ban them! :P

My friend and I will be working on and hopefully finishing the petition tomorrow early day. I really hope to have it completed tomorrow and posted alllllllover, fingers crossed. Sorry for the delay, but between her being out of town and me being sick there's been some delay that weren't our choices. Thanks for everyones understanding!

#1 -- Just to keep things straight, is this for the Indiana ban, Virginia ban, or the Federal one?  They all get confusing.

#2 - I'm always available to help with the wording!

#3 - I like lists.

#4 - Since there's already a petition on change.org and the White House's website, where will you be publishing yours, or will this be an addition?

I plan on doing this one for the Indiana ban first, then maybe one for the virginia ban. There's already one on whitehouse.gov regarding the federal ban like you said. Last time I looked here were two bans in favor of the bans on change.org but I didn't find any that were opposing it.

Sorry for the delay on the petition folks. I just got out of the hospital and hope to jump back on track of collaberating with my friend to write this petition. If there's already one on change.org PLEASE link me to it. I only found ones that supported the ludacris bans on there. Which appauled me!

     For those of you who think the battles over as a result of the recent incorporation of the four into the Lacey Act,  you're really gonna be amazed when they come back and get the other five, because if you believe they intend to stop here, you're sorely mistaken!  The fight continues and we have to bring it to them!  If we give up now because these four have been incorporated into the Lacey Act,  we will lose the other five.  We all need to look at this as though it's a lull in the battle and use it to our advantage.  We still need to organize and educate.  We need to make everyone in society understand that this has nothing to do with our pets, but is entirely political.  Example: we all know that the Yellow Ann doesn't get half as big as the Green.  So why would the government incorporate the smaller snake into the Lacey Act.  The answer is simple:  Greens are still marketable within our country's zoos!  Either we all get together on this or we're gonna lose our pets.  It's just that simple.

     Any Herp out there an Attorney that can offer some Pro Bono work?  Maybe we're approaching this the wrong way?   According to Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution, "no State shall pass any ex post facto Law.'' A similar provision that applies to Congress is found in Section 9 of the same article. At first glance these constitutional prohibitions seem simple enough--retroactive laws violate the Constitution.  For those of us already in possession of any of the four snakes added to the Lacey Act, the criminalization of what was otherwise non-criminal behavior would seem to be an ex post facto violation.  One would be inclined to think that we'd be grandfathered and the new additions to the Lacey Act could not be applied against us.  Just a thought.

I haven't passed the bar.  But I might as well be an attorney - I do all the work, it's just that I don't get the same pay, LOL...

TRUST ME - I've been looking into the constitution.  Focusing more on the Full Faith & Credit clause.  

The meat of the Lacey Act ammendment isn't really about ownership - that's not what it's saying.  It's about interstate commerce.  It's also in the Code of Federal Regulations - which means since it's federal, it'll trump what any other state says.  

I've had a few ideas on how one might propose an argument to overturn the ban.  It's not something that I can back up or prove overnight, but I'm working on it - it's a muckluckload of case law, basically.  

Ugh...so sorry for the delay in this petition being written for change.org. I was in the hospital, and have also had trouble getting together on mutual spare time with my writer friend, but we're working on it tomorrow FOR SURE. Hopefully we can have it completed tomorrow, or possibly the next day at latest. We plan on working on the Indiana bill IN1288 first off. Then we will expand our interest into the states like Virginia and Illinois that have fallen in line after this Python Ban. I think you've made many enticing points, FightFighterSC, along with others of you. Emily, FireFighter, anyone who has valid facts, and points to make that they think should be included in the petition/s I'm working on, please email me ASAP, because like I mentioned, I will be formulating the petition tomorrow, and possibly completing it tomorrow if not Wednesday. So get at me!!! visceralrepulsion@yahoo.com