Same old story. All of this is based on the AMVA comment that they "may" feel pain.

Studies show that they can, literally, feel their cells freeze and rupture as they get further chilled, sensing pain as intensely as if they were being burned alive, but unable to move or respond.

Those studies are what I want to see. All of the recommended options above require a visit to your local AMVA office. Decapitation (as I have seen on the internet) is not acceptable either.

The only "home remedy" that I could use would be a gunshot to the brain, and many don't have that option, either due to lack of firearms or the (lack of) ability to discharge a firearm in your municipality.

Wow. I think I'm going to be sick.

And just for the record, freezing MAY be inhumane. I simply don't know and having found any concrete evidence. I tend to question things, especially when there is financial gain to be made by saying certain things.

And just for the record, freezing MAY be inhumane. I simply don't know not* having found any concrete evidence. I tend to question things, especially when there is financial gain to be made by saying certain things.

sensing pain as intensely as if they were being burned alive, but unable to move or respond.

How was this determined?
If they appear unconscious, how do we know they aren't?

hmmm....I'll see if I can go dig up the research articles.

holy s**t, there are about 20 research articles. I'll have to have time to read them before I can draw any conclusions....Aaron, pm me your email address if you want copies of the pdfs?  I can access that stuff through work without having to pay

As far as freezing goes, nothing should have to die that slowly in my opinion.  I was fortunate that the 2 I thought I would have to euthanize were dead seconds after leaving their eggs.  There are home-made silencers for weapons if it is the noise that concerns you.  Decapitation would have been my preferred method, though, if I could not afford to have a vet do it (which is how every animal I have had to euthanize has been done).  I think quick separation of the head and body is painful, but only for a brief second.  Compared to the length of time it would take for something to freeze to the point of unconsciousness, that is microscopic.

Done and done.

I live "oop nord" in Minnesota, close to the Canadian border. It's common knowledge that several of our frog species freeze during the winter under the leaf litter, essencially becoming frogsicles. They thaw and reanimate again in the spring. This topic just reminded me of it. If it's a really painful process for them, then Nature's a dick. Though I suppose they might have different body chemistry. If you wanna explore the topic further, look up info on the wood frog. Food for thought.

Also the iguanas in Florida who go into a hypothermic type state, fall out of trees (potentially losing consciousness prior to ice crystals forming and the alleged excruciating pain), and get warmed up by people or the sun and go back to normal.

From what I understood was that they lost muscle control causing them to fall, not that they were actually asleep.

From a random news article:

The Green Iguana, a giant cold-blooded lizard, habitually enters hibernation when temperatures in its environment sink below 40 degrees (F). In these conditions, the iguana's metabolism slows, and the reptile enters a coma-like state. A potentially life-threatening symptom of this state - at least for tree-dwelling Green Iguanas - is the loss of muscle control. This, of course, is what leads to Kamikaze Iguanas (or Green Iguanas), frozen stiff, falling from trees in Florida.

This natural bodily defense mechanism protects the Green Iguana from hypothermia. As environmental temperatures rise again, the reptile warms up as well, coming out of the hibernation condition.

Not to mention normal snakes in northern climates that go into hibernation when it's near freezing. Who knows what state of consciousness they are in, when and if pain receptors kick in....

I have been thinking the exact things Aaron has voiced.

What is the difference between them going into hibernation and not waking up and freezing for euthanasia?

Honestly, in this debate Im more likely to listen to the vet instead of a "random news article". No offence. Also, I was under the impression (feel free to prove me wrong) that reptiles went through brumation, not hibernation. In brumation the animal neither freezes nor loses conciousness so I dont know how it supports freezing as being humane.

I would be interested in any articles suporting freezing.

I'm more likely to believe whoever can back up their theory with science. So far, either side has produced the same amount of concrete evidence. And I'm not sure how you "test" something like this anyway.

No offense taken, I can go either way on this. I just question things like this when there is a financial gain to be had. As a nerd, I search for facts. I haven't found any yet outside of an AMVA paper that includes the word "may".

And as far as brumation v. hibernation, I used the wrong word. The salient point is what is their state of conciousness and pain in that state?

I noticed there is no mention of the use of Co2 for euthanasia. Is this not an acceptable practice with reptiles? I use a home made co2 chamber to euthanize rodents before I feed them to my corn snake. It appears to be quite quick and painless.

You can hit the AMVA site for their take on euthanasia.

Do you use dry ice?

Im not sure that freezing is a great idea.  Im not sure that the vets statement is correct and as mentioned Im not sure theres anyway to tell.  However a gunshot to the head isnt the only very fast way to kill the brain.  Id think anyreally heavy object would do.

But really what studies are there and how do they go about figuring that the snake can actually feel there cells freezing and rupturing? 

Brumation IS NOT an unconscious state. Even the people who brumate corns in temp controlled fridges at 45 degrees can open the door and see a corn snake move, even if only slightly.

I actually use a 12 gram co2 cartridge with a drain line cleaner. It's normally used for blasting out pipes but I've adapted it to the chamber. Works really well. I'll post a few pics. 

I would like to know how they quantified the reptiles ability to feel pain and level of consciousness .. Do they use the Glasgow coma scale or something.....  I'm all about being humane.... but what I hate most is when people write papers quoting information that has no scientific basis.... as it was some reference data set....   

very interesting topic, thank you everyone who responded, i've learned some interesting things, and have gotten lots of food for thought. Hopefully I will not have to put down any of my critters for a great many years, but when it comes time, i will definitely have done my research.

very interesting topic, thank you everyone who responded, i've learned some interesting things, and have gotten lots of food for thought. Hopefully I will not have to put down any of my critters for a great many years, but when it comes time, i will definitely have done my research.

very interesting topic, thank you everyone who responded, i've learned some interesting things, and have gotten lots of food for thought. Hopefully I will not have to put down any of my critters for a great many years, but when it comes time, i will definitely have done my research.

god i hate laggy computers, sorry for the triple post! yikes! wish there was a "delete button" x_x

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